Re: OT (yeah, right!): Politics

Page 14 of 14  
"Nate Perkins"

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/05/steadfast_bushs_amazing_flip_flops /
Wrong. A cite isn't a comment that so and so said such and such. A cite gives the source. If it's a speech, for example, it mentions where and when the speech was given. In that way the reader can look it up and see if the quote was accurately portrayed and what the context may be. Your source was sloppy in not doing so. Probably because their main objective was whipping up emotion rather than being informative.

In the way they did it, it was slanderous. They have his quote on his belief the Iraqis welcome them and the fatalities of the war effort. That's unethical and wrong headed. It could be 90 percent of a population welcomes a liberating army but if 900 die it makes it null and void? The death toll does not reflect acceptance.

An opinion piece on what the author thinks might happen?

Self serving? I'm not running for office or general. The analogy serves my purpose to illustrate that showing fatality figures is a meaningless way to guage national "welcomes".

Two wrongs don't make a right.
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"Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote in message

Sheesh. Are you going to deny that any of those quotes are accurate? Come on, the cits are plenty clear enough to find the exact source for any quote given. Which one, specifically, is beyond your reach?

Is it unethical and wrong-headed to notice that guys are being killed over there? Or are you actually going to claim that 90% of the Iraqis welcome us?

A report by the British Royal Institute of International Affairs. I suppose you are better qualified to assess the situation in Iraq than they are? Or maybe this is just another Liberal thinktank, trying to elect Kerry?

Definiton Self serving (adj): "working or acting for your own advantage." You are attempting to equate Iraq, a venture of doubtful justification and dubious outcome with the proven success of WWII. WWII was a much larger struggle, led by more capable leaders, with more far-reaching consequences. Your analogy kind of reminds me of when Dan Quayle compared himself to Jack Kennedy in the debate with Lloyd Bentsen. What hubris.

Apparently you agree the Bushies are using quotations out of context. However, I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate where any of the quotes in the original link were inaccurate.
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"Nate Perkins"

I'm not sure what you mean. It's up to the journalist to make his work credible.

It's unethical to connect the two the way they did. I don't know the percent but neither did they. That's the problem.

It's a thinktank piece offering a few possible scenarios as they see it. Are you picking the worst one as gospel? I don't even know what your point is.

I'm equating a nonsensical opinion piece with trash. Nothing more. There's no reason to take it for more because, like Germany, soldiers died but we were welcomed. You seem to acknowledge that but want to dismiss the point because you believe Iraq was under inferior leadership and objectives. That makes no sense.

I don't even know what you mean by "Bushies". Is that anyone officially representing Bush or anyone that supports him? Most of what you say is based on assumptions.

Since many aren't properly cited it's a bit difficult to know. It feeds your political bias so its good enough for you. I prefer looking at things in context. When properly quoted one can look up the source and get the full picture.
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"Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote in message

I mean that the cits are plenty clear enough to find the exact source for any quote given, at least for any person who is interested in finding it. Exactly as I said. Again, which quotation, specifically, is too difficult for you to find a source for?
Just because *you* don't find it credible doesn't mean that it isn't accurate. Show me some proof otherwise.

"Unethical"? Wow, that's a pretty serious charge to level against a journalist for a major US newspaper. Can you back it up?
You know, Fletis, there have been a number of polls in Iraq done to gauge the support of the Iraqi people for the US occupation. Ever think of looking for one? http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

Uh, the point is that the perspective on Iraq stinks, and that even the best scenarios are unlikely to result in a pro-Western democracy.

Bah, by your weak logic we could compare any war in history with Iraq -- because there will always some portion of the population that would support us in any war, regardless of how the war goes. So you could just as well compare Iraq with Vietnam, but instead -- for obvious self-serving reasons -- you want to compare it with Germany.

A Bushie is someone who is so blinded by their partisan loyalty to Bush that they intentionally ignore all evidence that his policies may be imperfect or failed. You are being intentionally obtuse (again).

Circular, circular. What a waste of electrons.
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Nate Perkins wrote:
<SNIP>

As far as I am concerned USA Today lost all its credibility when they issued a press credential to Michael Moore at the RNC.
Glen
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"Nate Perkins"

Just because it feeds your bias it doesn't make it credible. I explained how quotes are properly cited. Just saying so and so said this on that day is not a proper cite. True, I could spend the time and take up the slack for sloppy journalism and possibly find it but why would I? If it's too sloppy to take seriously I'm not going to take it seriously. The piece was obviously written to satisfy a bias, not to inform.

I just did. And just because it's in a major paper hardly makes it credible, accurate or fair.

I'm not that interested in it really. We were discussing the unscholarly manner in which your opinion source was written. It was up to the author to make the case, not me. Or you.

Uh, you can't seem to read with an open mind. The "rosiest" scenario said no one group would dominate. How is that not a democracy?

We should. That's the point. How is that weak?

I'm not interested in goosestepping to your bias. My analogy was indeed intended to support my point. It's idiocy to say it's a "self serving" point. We never conquered the Vietnamese army but we did conquer the German's, like Iraq. We occupied Germany, like Iraq. So we can see who is being self serving here, to put it in your odd terms, but your analogy make little sense.

I don't share the left wing hate so I am not familiar with their nuances of all their insults. I don't recall any supporter call either Bush or his policies perfect so the obtusness is all yours (again).

Yes, you did.
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"philski writes:

After all, politics is a contact sport.
IMHO, the whole right wing that has grabbed control of the Republican party the last 10-15 years are a bunch of hypocrites.
Basically, it is their way or the highway.
Just my thoughts.
Lew
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On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:12:47 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"

... and that's why Ted Kennedy got to write the education bill to his liking, why school vouchers were defeated and no strong push back was made. That's why campaign finance reform was signed into law despite the fact that the constitution specifically says, "Congress shall make NO law abridging the freedom of speech..." which is exactly what CFR does (hence the recent flap about 527C organizations). That's why the largest entitlement increase in 40 years (prescription drugs) was passed and signed into law. That's why steel tariffs were instituted a couple of years ago. Yep, the far right really grabbed the reigns and had their way.
Let's see, to be fair, there were a few points the right did get: It got a tax break for all taxpayers. It did manage to pass a law prohibiting what is essentially infanticide (my son was born at the same gestation period as these procedures permit the unanesthetized incision into the head and suctioning of the brain, thus there is no argument about these being "nonviable" tissue masses) illegal. Of course, some activist judges have overturned that law, ruling that it must include provisions to permit said procedures for "the mother's health", despite the fact there is no medical evidence that this procedure could in any circumstance save a mother's life since it is essentially indistinguishable from live birth or a cesarian section. And there was a decisive response to the attack on the US. I suspect we would still be wrangling with the UN and the Taliban, with perhaps a few cruise missile launches had the other side won in 2000.
Yep, definitely my way or the highway, uh-huh.

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