Re: OT-National Security

Page 2 of 4  
snipped-for-privacy@lycos.com wrote:

I believe he meant the OP who talked about arming the passengers. Not your Original Post.
TroyD
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What does OP mean in this context?
Thanks,
Wes
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Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Gee Tee EYE EYE dot COM
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snipped-for-privacy@lycos.com wrote:

I couldn't hink of anything nice to say except it is obvious that OP was misused. Any further comment would not have been nice and I try to be nice to everybody.
TroyD
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On 31 Jul 2003 07:46:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.combleah (Charlie Self) wrote:

    This has been chewed over a number of times on rec.metalworking. My slant on it would be to allow anyone with a CCW permit to pack on the plane. It would increase the hazard level for the hijackers quite a bit...they really WOULD have no idea who was armed and who was not, and, at least in theory it would mean that the folks that were armed had at least SOME training.     It is a tough question, but, for me, I always fall on the side of laxer regulations, simply because I see America sliding slowly towards the point that we are ALL sheep living in Camp X-Ray, and, for me, that is a VERY bad thing.     The idea that the government is "mommy and daddy" and should protect us to the point that we are all passive toddlers is becoming more widespread, and, is one of the signs that America may well be on the road of decadence and rot that has brought down other great civilizations. Actually, when considering National Security, I think that we could do better to simply start requiring that every citizen that graduates from high school (or hits the age of 18) serve in the military for a couple of years. It would probably do more for us than ALL the smoke, mirrors and handwaving of the Department of Homeland Security.     As for the dangers to the plane...as far as I can tell, they are overrated, as we have a number of examples of planes that have lost LARGE chunks of fuselage and still landed successfully. A few bullet holes are unlikely to cause enough damage to be serious. Of course, there is always the chance that control lines, etc, might be hit...but, it is my understanding that these tend to run through the belly of the machine, and in most cases, the bullets will be going down the LENGTH of the cabin. Remember that if my previous suggestion of military service were implimented, within a few years, every person on the plane would have been trained to use a firearm properly.     Life is a dangerous occupation, and, we can NEVER be truly safe. I think the individual danger of a few folks packing on a plane is far less than the dangers involved for the folks ON the plane and on the ground if it were to get hijacked and used as a weapon.     Regards     Dave Mundt
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On 31 Jul 2003 07:46:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.combleah (Charlie Self) wrote:
<SNIP>

Ok. so . . . .
The aircraft crashes into something large, expensive, and heavily populated if the terrorists manage to take control. Not good.
Or the aircraft has explosive decompression and manages to get below FL 180 before all the geese drop dead, and lands on a _runway_.
Think I'll take the latter scenario. Cheers, Fred McClellan the dash plumber at mindspring dot com
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Pick any situation and someone somewhere will come up with a reason not to do X.
Airline travel is not safer than before 9/11, and it is getting worse.
Most folks probably missed the 'news' that TSA pulled ALL the sky marshalls off cross-country flights effective tomorrow. That was on Tuesday. Today TSA says the sky marshalls are not being pulled, they're going to do something else to hide the $900 million hole in their budget. This makes the second year of TSAs existence and the second year they're run flat out of money half-way through the year.
In a day and age when the security toads confiscate rifles from GI Joe

the CMH (Joe Foss, before his death), and steal expensive sunglasses from vic. . . persons being screened (this week, Atlanta, Hartsfield; TSA droid was nephew of Atlanta Chief of Police, droid fired, no charges) it ought to be readily apparent that TSA et al have no idea of how to make the airlines safe/secure.
If it's all the same to you, I druther fly on an airliner where at least the _possibility_ of armed passengers and flight crew exists, as opposed to a TSA-guaranteed totally unarmed and utterly defenseless load of fare-paying passengers and crew.
One is a known quantity, thanks to TSA, and it's right up the terrorists' alley.
The other is an unknown, and no right-thinking terrorist is going to try for an airliner where the odds are likely to be stacked against him. He'll go for the sure thing or he'll just bide his time until a sure thing comes along.
Thanks to TSA, there are plenty of sure things for the terrorists to go after. Cheers, Fred McClellan the dash plumber at mindspring dot com
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    Greetings and Salutations.... On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:13:26 -0400, Fred McClellan

    And the REALLY obscene thing that was reported yesterday from the Atlanta Airport. One of the passengers passing through had a triangular folded American Flag, from a military funeral. Not only did the droid insist on unfolding it, but, apparently feld that the empty brass folded into it was a terroristic weapon, so, told the person that they had a choice...they could take the flag without the brass, or they could take the flag and the brass and go to Jail. Now...for me...I would have gone to jail, and then ended up retiring on the proceeds of the lawsuit.     There are not too many things that just get on my last nerve, but this, I find, is one of them. Here is the flag, that had covered the coffin of a military veteran, and has in it the symbols of the respect that America has for that person's sacrifice. Then, we see some Herbert not only insisting that it be casually unfolded at a security station, but, then going ballistic over some harmless pieces of brass.     It is a symbol of all that is bad about the whold "Airline Security" thing.     Oh, yea...apparently the flag HAD gone through other security stations, with no problems, and, so far, the authorities at the airport are keeping mum about the whole thing. Probably a good thing, though, as it would be really hard for them to find anything to say that would not just make the situation worse.     Regards     Dave Mundt
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You must be a Startrek fan.

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    Greetings and Salutations....
wrote:

    *smile*..."takes one to know one" springs to mind right off.... While not a fanatic about (I DO know it was a television show), I did enjoy the "cowboys in space" show of the original series. Of course, being a bit too rebellious myself, I enjoyed both the anarchy of the episode. I also was bright enough to take a lesson from the dangers of being seduced by a bright and shiny utopia in front of me.     One of the things that I enjoy about today's reality is the LARGE number of magical machines that are normal reality now that appeared as stage props in the original series. Now if they would only bring back the uniforms (*BSEG*), life would be better indeed.     Regards     Dave Mundt
    
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It does. It's far safer to be a criminal in England than it is here.

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says...

Absolutely ridiculous idea. A good number of hijackers these days are fanatics. What makes you think for one second that all passengers having weapons would deter them? They're ready to die and take as many people as possible with them. Starting a gunfight in a pressured cabin would accomplish that in a second and it would only take one hijacker or even a passenger making a mistake to start it. The airline industry would grind to halt. Instead of a group of fanatical hijackers taking over a flight, it would only take one per flight to destroy the entire plane and you'd have to kiss the airline industry goodbye. At best, you're completely brain-dead.
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Upscale wrote:

Some are, some aren't. There's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that most of the September 11th hijackers didn't realize they were going to die that day. Apparently not everybody was in on the *total* plan.
I also point out that most Palestinian terrorists target unarmed civilians. If they truly didn't care, they'd take on more armed targets.
Yassir Arafat himself said he wanted to become a martyr back when his headquarters was being occupied by Israelis. If that were really true, all he had to do was step out into the hall. It didn't happen.
I don't believe that all of these guys are particularly brave. Some are, some aren't.

Ad hominem attacks don't strengthen your position. Your conclusions are based on faulty information. Jet aircraft will not fall out of the sky because of a few holes in the skin. I seem to recall an Aloha Airline flight that made it safely onto the ground with a significant amount of airframe peeled off.... and that was after an explosive decompression. Most airframes will just leak after being punctured by bullets.
In WWII, the B-29 Superfortress was pressurized. No doubt the cabins were holed quite frequently by flak or other aircraft. It trook significant battle damage to bring one down. Admittedly, the modern airliner isn't built to the same standard as a bomber, but it's still damned tough. And the same people build them.... (If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!)
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

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most
day.
Very few *intend* to die, but it only takes one to make it happen. Dieing is usually a last resort, but anybody who resorts to it realizes that it could happen. Doesn't stop them much does it?

civilians. If

Targets of opportunity with the least backlash are always the first choice, if those easy choices disappear, do you really think they'll stop? The Israeli army is fully armed and never had any problem brandishing their firepower. Strange that terrorist attacks still happened quite frequently against soldiers too don't you think? Kind of shoots down your statement in my opinion.

some aren't.
Yup. And you'd be prepared to take that chance eh?

based
of a
Again, you'd be prepared to take that chance on a regular basis? Fly much Mortimer? The world you appear to be supporting is completely foreign to my sense of safety as it exists in our society. I hope yours never comes to fruition.
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Upscale wrote:

Actually, it does. How many skyjackings have there been in this country since 9/11? I can't recall any.

It happens much more often against civilians. If anything, that strengthens my argument. There's always some nutcase in that part of the world willing to claim his virgins, but there's even more who are afraid to meet Allah when push comes to shove.
>> I don't believe that all of these guys are particularly brave. Some

Yes. The odds are very much in my favor.

I don't fly as much as I once did. I was a commercial pilot once (now I have diabetes). In any case, I don't plan my day around the possibility that the sky might fall. My sense of security is quite comfortable.
I lock the doors to my house and car; I don't visit unsafe areas; I leave my neighbors alone; I keep guns in both my home and vehicle (and have a carry permit for them). Beyond that, I've observed the security measures that are now in place at our nation's airports. They are far from perfect, but also far from what they were before 9/11. Finally, I believe in the solution to pollution is dilution. In other words, the chances of hijackers boarding my flight are probably less than me being struck by lightning. I refuse to live my life in fear. I've taken the prudent measures I think I should and refuse to worry about what I can't control. So, yes, I feel safe.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

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I love the idea, but in practice, forget it. Some of the "willing" would probably be people who already know how to use a gun, but others will be the ones who have no skill, but plenty of bravado. Add a couple of cocktails to those amateur brains and you've got a circus.
While at the shooting range, I've noticed that when shooters miss the bullseye, they often miss by a LOT - sometimes a foot or two. That's way too far off for shooting in a crowd.
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After further reflection, I have to agree with you. Some guys would not present a problem at all, guys like my BIL (ex-Navy). Pistol practice for Mike means using 50-foot targets on a hundred *yard* range and putting five out of five in the 10-ring.
Then there's the guy I saw last fall while I was sighting in my scoped 12ga shotgun getting ready for deer season. I was firing three-shot groups that you could cover with a quarter. About the time I finished up, the guy one lane over from me brought his target back in, looked at it, then showed it to me and said proudly "There! I guess that oughta be good enough to kill a deer!" He'd fired about 30 rounds at a silhouette target from fifty feet away. No two rounds were within two inches of each other, or of the bulls-eye. At least half a dozen rounds hadn't even hit the silhouette. I hope this guy never even *sees* a deer in the woods. And I don't like the idea of him being on an airliner, armed, any better.
I suspect there are three like him for every one like my brother-in-law.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
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Doug Kanter wrote:

The times I've seen that, it was either the shooters first day or the shooter was an LEO trying to get ready for his/her semi-annual qualification.
My 10 year old daughter shoots her gun more often than a lot of cops do. She's now working on Light Rifle Expert.
ARM - member Ohioans For Concealed Carry http://www.ofcc.net /
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Mike Jones wrote:

You'd rather take your chances with people who want to kill you rather than people who don't? How sad.
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN

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wrote:

You have to differentiate between our right to carry weapons, and our ability to use them safely. When's the last time you visited an emergency room on a summer weekend? They're mostly occupied with morons who've hacked off fingers or limbs with power tools and yard equipment. Lots of people aren't qualified to operate a toaster, much less a motor vehicle or a hedge trimmer. And, if you spend some time reading messages in rec.guns (the newsgroup), you'll see plenty of instances of morons causing gun accidents. They're mostly non-fatal, but they still happen. Here in upstate NY, each hunting season brings at least a half dozen accidental shootings.
If by "trusted", you mean our ability to make the decision to use force responsibly.....maybe. I carry a pistol regularly, but I am keenly aware of the point where my temper reaches its limits.
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Ah, brings back memories of Mike Royko's column with bizarre hunting accidents. I still laugh when I think about the guy who shot his buddy in the hand when he put it on the side of a tree. "It looked like a squirrel" was the reason the shooter gave. Fabulous.
Dennis Vogel
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