Re: OT Frost your nuts?

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On 1/24/2010 2:34 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

I'm inclined to agree - although now that the issue has been raised and so much noise made, I'd like to see it resolved (but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen).

I haven't been able to bring myself to make even that assumption. There are already enough problems in the world to provide enormous amounts of opportunity - and the Internet spreads those opportunities around fairly well.
Did you finish your garage project?
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Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Morris Dovey wrote:

I'd like to see it resolved too, but I don't see it happening.

Got the roof done but that's as far as ambition went. Maybe this summer I'll do more.
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On 1/24/2010 4:36 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:

This is the way I see it.

Agreed. (Is this /really/ Mark I'm responding to?) ;-)
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Morris Dovey wrote:

Perhaps we have reached a point where science is too important a matter to be left to the scientists?
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On 1/24/2010 8:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

I don't think there's a choice, other than to remake those "scientists" who cook data and/or publish conjecture-as-fact into lab rats. :)
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Morris Dovey
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Morris Dovey wrote:

There are certainly enough of them.
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Morris Dovey wrote:

Pretty good suggestion -- strong negative feedback loop that should reduce the shenanigans
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There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:54:33 -0500, the infamous "J. Clarke"

You meant "politicians", didn't you? REAL scientists don't skew data, hide data, delete emails, or deny peer review for money or ideology.
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"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
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J. Clarke wrote:

Hmm. There's EMPIRICAL science - math, physics, astronomy, chemistry, etc. - and there's SOFT science (social science, psychology, climatology, phrenology, astrology) which may not be quantifiable, reproducible, or even believable.
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HeyBub wrote:

Well, the NSF (National Science Foundation), et. al., politicizes science enough, wouldn't you say? It provides a first-level means of spending money where it needs to be spent (I didn't say it is a perfect system). So science is not (independently) left to the scientists. Tax payers, via politicians, get some say in what types of research are pursued with tax dollars.
Bill

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Bill wrote:

Now, take that to the next level. When politicians decide what *type* of research is to be funded and then the results that receive continuing grants, what do you think will be the primary research interests and working hypotheses of the scientists so funded.
As one person said, the result of having the government pay for something is to continue to get more of that something.

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There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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Fair enough. If the government announces that they would like to see more reseach on education, then you will see more proposals to do research on education. I know of institutions which hire people to stay abreast of the types of proposals that are likely to be funded. What is your point?
It sounds like you already know what type of research will be funded. I don't pretend to know. Military applications seem like a safe bet.
Bill
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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 00:06:12 -0500, the infamous "Bill"

I believe that his point is: Politicians get lots of mileage from saying they're doing something about AGWK, so they support funding of AGWK research. Skeptics don't scare the public or put money into the politicians' pockets, so they don't get funding.
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"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
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I have heard this at MY breakfast table...." Yup, that's a good field to get into, the gov't is doling out all kinds of money for research projects..." and those kids are still in highschool. (They were talking about AGW)
I should imagine those kids are smart enough to know that if, after the first paper calls the whole AWG for what it is, their funding will be cut off.
The good ol' academic trough.
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RE: Subject
Like it or lump it, dependance on fossil fuels is operating on borrowed time.
Just as oil saved the whale, it's time to transition to clean energy generation to save our planet.
You can go screaming and running into that good night or you can be part of the solution.
Alternate clean renewable energy resources are plentiful.
Geo Thermal, solar, hydro, wind, yes an even nulcear, IF the disposal problems can be resolved.
The challenge is to figure how best to get the job done effectively.
Flapping your gums, or in this forum your fingers on a keyboard, simply isn't productive.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Why do you say that? Every year the provable reserves of petroleum increases. Heck, there's even a theory that oil is being CREATED deep underground.

For the foreseeable future (say, 200 years), geothermal, solar, hydro, and wind can, at best, merely nibble at the margins.
You can't run an Aluminum production facility - that takes Gigawatts of power - off of sunbeams. Ever.
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On 01/27/2010 09:09 AM, HeyBub wrote:

You underestimate the sun.
Average insolation for the earth is 250W/m^2. Using arrays of mirrors to focus heat it would take a reflective area 1kmx4km to generate 1GW of power.
Chris
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Chris Friesen wrote:

Look, if you're going to advocate for solar at least learn how to run the numbers properly. You need a continuous 1GW to run your aluminum plant. You're going to use "mirrors" to "focus heat". Fine. Now you're going to do what with that heat? Run a heat engine? So you're getting what, 50% efficiency? (I'm being generous with that one). So you need to double that area. Now, it gets dark at night, so you need to store energy somehow. You need to generate 500W/m^2 during the day to make up for the 0 at night. So double it again--more than double for a mid-latitude installation where days are shorter than nights in the winter--for the Baie-Comeau plant for example you'd have to triple that reflector area. And your storage system isn't going to be completely efficient--if you're using batteries then you have the immense cost of replacing them every few hundred charge/discharge cycles--go out and price a gigawatt of the cheapest batteries you can find and get back to us. Or maybe you're going to electrolyze water into hydrogen. So that's happening at 80 percent. Now what are you going to do with that hydrogen, use it to run your heat engine at night or are you going to use fuel cells? If you're running your heat engine at night then you've got another 50 percent efficiency hit, so double your collector area again plus another 25 percent. Or maybe you're going to run hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells--that's more efficient (but not hugely more) but now you also have a huge bank of fuel cells to maintain. And how much added capacity do you need to provide to deal with heavy overcast? How much does rain degrade the efficiency of your reflectors? How much additional capacity do you need to provide to allow for dust and bird poop on the reflectors, or are you going to clean 16 or more square kilometers of reflector every day? And how many cleanings can they take before the surface becomes unacceptably degraded?
So, your solar collector area to power that plant in Baie-Comeau, Quebec, would be maybe 5.5-6km square, not your 1x4. The aluminum plant itself is only about .5x.5 or .25 square kilometers. So how many power plants 20 times the size of the facility they power can we afford to build? The Manic-5 dam, which actually does power that facility, using water from a lake in a gigantic meteor crater, is only about 1.2km long. The entire Millstone nuclear plant in Connecticut is only about .6x.2km.
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This is likely to spark a load of questions. There is a really cool saying in Dutch which translates into "one fool can ask more questions than a 1thousand wise men can answer." Apply when needed, rinse and repeat. <G>
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On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:50:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy

Let's apply it to Chris' comment, shall we?
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"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster."
Kevin Vranes, climate scientist, University of Colorado
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