Re: OT - Coulter

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Giftzweig chimes in with:

First, you're writing of a full year. Second, you're writing of a population of 300,000,000 where the 341 deaths occured, not a population of 140,000 or fewer, which is where the 261 deaths occured.
As he said, disingenuous. It is not at all on-point.
What you're doing is something along the order of saying the 55,000 American deaths during the Vietnam war wasn't much more than a single year's total from auto accidents in the U.S., so, because the deaths in 'Nam occured over about 11 years, that's not so bad. Which is utter nonsense, just as your argument is.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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puzzla reckons:

Yeah, well...I'm willing to bet that within 6 months to 2 years (way outside) of the time we get out of Iraq, regardless of what happens between now and then, some scumbag similar to Hussein is in power and will be just as bad as ol' Saddas Insane the day we take our eyes off the place.
Why Bush, or anyone else, believes we're going to change a 20 century old "culture" is baffling. Democracy is not something many in the Middle East understand, at least on terms similar to those we understand it in.
Overall, our best bet all round is to make sure no one there has weapons that can threaten us, then leave 'em the hell alone to do as they wish, which is what's going to happen anyway.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:44:50 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:

That may all be true, but the same arguments could have been made about Japan after WWII. And our "exit strategy" there and Germany and Korea and Kosovo and ... was? The only place we totally exited in recent history was Viet Nam, and that wasn't after a victory. I think the reason you stated is precisely why the US can't "take our eyes off the place", along with the lesson the world learned about our involvement with Germany after WWI as opposed to WWII (evacuate and let bad guys take power because of a chaotic state of affairs vs. the Marshall Plan and all).
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn notes:

Different situation. A society with a cohesive structure based on religious awe aimed at the emperor, who immediately abdicated after his side lost. Brutally violent culture, yes, but cohesive. I don't think you can say Iraq has a cohesive structure, even. Again, brutally violent, but in many factions, though all lay claim to the same basic religion.

We had no exit strategy in Germany--we still have something like 70,000 troops there. Same with Korea, but a smaller number and more likely to be needed in the immediate future. Kosovo? Another place we shouldn't be, but still are.
Point being, though, that we do occasionally need to learn a lesson. I'm not sure when that will happen, but in soggy little shitholes, we do not need to leave people hanging, often fighting and nearly forgotten (give Iraq another 3-4 years and see what happens), expending our resources to no good purpose (arguably, Germany and Japan were good purposes).
And hell, we didn't have an exit strategy in Nam. The Democrats couldn't figure out how to get out, so Nixon just bailed after he got in, though it took him several years to do the job while he went Asiatic (trying to save face).
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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Doug Winterburn writes:

Democracy needs no confidence. It does need a fertile breeding ground, something that has not ever existed in most areas of the Middle East. Possibly Israel, but elsewhere, forget it. If that's stereotyping, then let's stereotype. These people are essentially living in the Middle Ages still, except for a few mod cons. Their concepts of freedom differ from ours--for the most part, they want to be free to impose their beliefs on everyone else. All the rest of our freedoms don't take a backseat, really: the don't even get in the vehicle.
Democracy needs a background of some sort. That background has never existed in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and similar spots. I won't say it never will, but I sure don't expect to live to see it, and I am inclined to doubt my grandkids will.
Saddass did a job of keeping most terrorists out of his area, for no reason other than that they seemed to pose a threat to him. Saudi Arabia supplied by far the greatest majority of the 9/11 terrorist types.
Somehow, I don't see any logic. Go into a pissant country where the biggest threat was the mouth wind created by the dictator, and leave more dangerous areas alone. Or, maybe, I do see the logic. It looked fast and easy.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme says...

... snip

But Charles, we were already there since the dictator of that country invaded a neighboring country. We had been enforcing the no-fly zones ever since the first gulf action; that situation had to be resolved at some point -- simply abandoning the policy was a sure way of further destabilizing that region. The fact the dictator of Iraq wasn't invading neigboring countries was because his freedom to do so had been blocked by the continued enforcement of the no-fly zones. Remember also that while there have yet been no findings of WMD's, there is significant evidence that he intended to pursue development once the sanctions were lifted. Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons is of significant concern as well -- I'm pretty sure that situation is not being ignored -- a radical muslim funamentalist nation with the bomb is not something to be taken lightly.

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Mark & Juanita posits:

Where's the "either/or" here? No one said a word about abandoning a procedure that was working well.

If they ever were lifted. The fact is, Bush's buddies jumped on him and he jumped on Iraq for reasons that are not yet established. Imminent danger to the U.S. was not one of those reasons, AFAICT.

No one has said a thing about Iran and its pursuit of nuclear weapons, a pursuit that recently seems to be turning aside, at least a bit. Nuclear weapons that exist and nuclear weapons that are intended to exist if a set of circumstances changes are two very different things.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme says...

I didn't intend to imply an either/or at that point. My intention was to point out that we already had a presence and involvement. We were pretty much dropping bombs daily, and the other side was getting more and more clever is shifting its assets and gauging means of attacking those aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone. It was only a matter of time before we started losing aircraft -- with absolutely no tactical or strategic gains.

Prior to the start Bush's pushing to resolve the issues with Saddam's failure to comply with UN sanctions, there were numerous countries pushing to repeal the sanctions -- many "human rights" groups were also becoming more vocal claiming that the sanctions were "killing children" in Iraq.
Bush's speeches indicated that he was unwilling to wait for "imminent danger" to take action because by the time the danger was imminent, it would be too late.

The above was in reference to your comment regarding the rest of the region and ignoring concerns from those other countries, I merely was pointing out an example where there is concern.

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You know Charlkie, in the 1800's Israel was not even poulated to any great extent. That happened in this century. And you are right; to my knowledge, there never has been a democracy in the Middle East and I doubt there will ever be one either. Ever get the feeling that Bush would like to be thought of as MacArthur was after he rebuilt Japan? He is in for a big surprise; we should appoint a gov't, arm them and get the heck out before we see Viet Nam all over again. Those folks will turn on you in a minute; it is part of their culture. There ARE some good people but most have to worry about surviving. I enjoyed much Arab hospitality but I was always aware that their mood/feelings could and would change in a split second. We should not cram our gov't down their throats; it won't work. Look at all the problems Russia is having as they attempt to change; wonder if they will make it?
On 16 Nov 2003 19:26:37 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

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Lawrence Ramsey notes:

I sseem to recall Bush stating something along those lines this past week. Speed things up, get the Iraqis set up, maybe, but get out, surely.

Peter Ustinov used to make some pretty cogent remarks on Russia and Russians, and their incapacity for dealing with a decent government...but that was long before the fall of the USSR.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme says...

And what's even more disturbing, some elements in this country would like to do the same.
And since you like to quote Thomas Jefferson (as do I):
"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind. Were I to enter on that arena, I should only add an unit to the number of Bedlamites."
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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Larry Blanchard notes:

But let us not forget Jefferson at another time: "All the world would be Christian if they were taught the pure Gospel of Christ!"
Hard to tell if we wasn't allowing contradiction to get in the way of original thought, or had his tongue firmly planted, at least at this late date. I vote for his not being bothered by a tongue in his cheek, but who knows.
Charlie Self "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 01:05:39 +0000, Charlie Self wrote:

He also talked about avoiding foreign entanglements, but later built our first navy ships and sent them to take care of the Barbary Pirates after much kidnapping, murder and extortion by said pirates. Reality got in the way of idealism for Jefferson as it does for many who must uphold the oath.
-Doug
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Rafe B. wrote on 16 Nov 2003:

"Moderate and sensible" meaning that she is willing to allow pro- abortionists kill tiny human beings. This is only "moderate and sensible" if you buy into the abortionist claptrap that the woman should have the right to decide whether her unborn child should live or die.
As for Dole's "counterparts on the right," -- what makes you think Elizabeth Dole is on the "right?" Do you come to this conclusion because she is a Republican? She has quite often weighed in with those who favor more government control.
Elizabeth Dole, like her husband, is merely a Republican hack. What she says or believes is immaterial in the abortion debate. Her position amounts to sitting on the fence, holding her nose, and hoping the problem will go away.
--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
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[snips]

Who ya gonna believe? The neo-con spin or your own lyin' eyes?
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A woman voting for a Republican is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders.
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wrote:

to
Liberal Democrats have always had a hard time understanding the US Constitution...........
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William Graham writes:

Especially as interpreted by conservative republicans.
Charlie Self "Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance." Ambrose Bierce
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I was going to say that's because the Republicans have their own version of it.
Dennis Vogel
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