Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100.

[Larry Jaques]

On 15 Mar 2005 23:58:09 -0800, the inscrutable "Andrew P" spake:

I am starting a small gourmet food business and I need a mold for a >vacuum molded tray. I made the vacuum machine myself, however I have a >serious lack of tools to make a mold. I was hoping that someone in >this newsgroup might be able to make it for me this week. I can pay >via paypal in advance if you are interested but I only have $100 to >spend on this mold. I will pay $50 up front and $50 upon receipt. >Optionally, if you contact me and want to complete the job, you can >place an auction on ebay for your service and I can purchase through >ebay. My feedback rating is 59 and is 100% positive.

You've got balls, Andrew. It takes many hours to produce anything

-close- to a finished mold, and to ask for it IN 3 DAYS and for only $100 is a real insult to any self-respecting mold or patternmaker or decent woodworker.

Try

. You won't be getting it this week, but it might be closer to the paltry fee you offered.

100:1 they recommend another material. 1/8" thick walls in MDF aren't very strong.

- Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.

[Teamcasa]

"Larry Jaques" snip

Anyone with a CNC machine can make that in a snap. Morris?

Dave

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[Robatoy]

...you beat me to it, Larry...

and you are right about the 1/8" MDF partitions/walls..you'd never get them to survive during the fabrication of the mold.... much less pulling off a piece of vacuum formed plastic.

That mold s a job for aluminum, IMHO.

0?0

Rob

[WillR]

Interesting...

I was going to make a smart-ass remark -- but canned the post. Larry was at least polite -- unlike my first instinct...

If someone had CNC machinery and was geared up for small jobs -- and had done something almost identical -- maybe.

I find it usually takes an hour just to "understand" a small job completely -- and there goes the $100. Unless of course you are willing to do a job over and over and over -- till you discover what the client really wanted...

And MDF? I thought metal would be better as well.

These jobs always look simple -- sometimes they even are simple -- sometimes they are anything but simple -- most of the times there are "hidden requirements".

Nice to see that it wasn't only me that thought it an "odd" post. Spec is actually convoluted as well.

One other thing. It reminds me of many books I have seen where a "sketch" is passed off as a plan. And of course there have been more than a few customers that have given me plans at least as good as this one...

Notice one other thing.... Over the years I have had many clients admit that they know nothing about engineering and software dictate the tools and methods to use for the job. In a way it is almost nice to know that this silliness isn't restricted to one field.

Got no tools - can't do the work - can't create a plan - yet tells one how to build it. Cute!

Been there done that -- no more please.

Hardwood? -- maybe a very dense strong hardwood! - Compound angles for $100 har har har. Better get some (acetone free) Gorilla glue and a few pounds of railroad spikes to hold it together though.

Even someone with a milling machine better note that the plan is not a plan and had better be able to create one and form it pretty quick -- or have a template -- otherwise you will be paying $100 to do the job.

Come back with $500 -- as a starting offer.

Guess I was rude -- wasn't I?

[Dave Balderstone]

2 of 3 rule...

Good

Fast

Cheap

Pick 2.

What you get, if you get it, won't be good... You've picked your 2.

[J. Clarke]

Find your nearest high school or vocational school that has a shop. Find a student who has access to that shop and _really_ needs that hundred bucks.

Don't be surprised if halfway through either the instructor shuts him off or he decides that he's putting far more than 100 bucks worth of effort into it.

Seriously, you need to decide whether you want to be in the gourmet food business or the plastic tray business and then do one or the other. I would be very surprised if there was not someone manufacturing plastic trays that would fit your need for less than it will cost you to make them.

[Unquestionably Confused]

Quite true but he probably already knows that and figures he can do it quicker and cheaper anyway off the backs of somebody here. If that sort of thinking runs true in his business plan, I think I'd also probably want to take a pass on his gourmet food... "How much for that butter? What, you ain't got some that's past the sell date?" LOL!

[Andrew P]

Uhh...fast and cheap? You act like that isn't an option. Apparently my post got interpreted as: "Need High Tolerence Rocket Nozzle milled from Kryptonite for $100." eMachineShop will mill it for $180 out of T6 (shipped), and $140 out of mdf. And yeah...if you had a cnc in your shop and wanted to kick something out for some extra cash so be it. If you don't - why waste the time posting? If all of your guys' time is worth so much why are you even replying to the post? Get over it. I even suggested the exact model router bit - and would buy it for you to keep, and pay in advance. And for the price of 1/10th of your entire monthly cnc lease payment...can you really complain? If you want me to bang it out in solidworks I guess I could...but is it really worthy? I'm molding a prototype out of .015 hips...And at 1/2" the walls would hold up fine. And yes...I have to drill the ports in the cativies myself...ok thanks anyway sorry for disturbing your newsgroup.

[Andrew P]

Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank you for your help.

[Robatoy]

It would have helped a whole lot had you been more specific in your original request. Words like 'vacuum-forming molds' and 'non-production proto-type' have a completely different meaning with this crowd. The difference in approach is astounding. You knew what you meant....we didn't. Communications, my friend.

When a customer of yours says "pickle on the side", you may know if he/she wants that pickle on the plate or beside plate....left side or right side....the side of the house... the side of error?

I have seen a lot of people in this group go out of their way to help others but when you trivialize their effort by putting a monetary value on that effort, without having any idea what that value is, you can get an adverse reaction if that number doesn't compute with any of us.

So, instead of laying a trip on anybody, go and buy what you need, learn the processes involved (keep track of your hours, including that trip to the Borg for that $97.00 router) get the MDF, router bit, make a jig, guidebushings, make a few mistakes, clean up after yourself and get back to us when you're all done.

A(n) $18.00 1/4" shank routerbit (Amana 45780) is hardly a lure either.

Oh...and how I spend my time on the computer doesn't concern you..it is part of my anger management therapy.

0¿0 *

Rob

[Doug Miller]

Do that.

Come back after you've finished, and tell us if it was as easy as you expected.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[Mike Marlow]

Slowwwww down Rob. Yer gonna bust a blood vessel and then yer gonna get blood on that piece of cherry which will put you in disfavor with the wood gods and everyone here for staining cherry, and to top it all off, yer gonna have to clean up the mess with acetone! Really - I'd cut him a little slack here. Looks like the production rate for this stuff is around $140 from his posted research. I don't think he's so far out of line by reaching out to what is a hobby newsgroup and asking if anyone is interested in doing this for $100 plus the benefit of the bit. That really puts the pay up around the rates the shops had quoted him. Not so bad for a hobby type with the interest in taking in on. I know that it does not have the same appeal to the guys here who do run production shops, but my point is that he brought it to what is essentially a hobby group and made a reasonable offer.

That's really why most people pay someone else to do the work. They don't want to or can't invest in the time to do that. It's really not that wrong of this fellow to solicit a $140 professionally quoted job from a hobby group to be done for ~$120. Though, I'd have to wonder why bother for what appears to be only a $20 savings? But, that'd be a different conversation. I have to admit that I think the responses by and large were a bit less than accomodating. I understand why a production shop would not want to fart around with something like this and can't blame them one bit for considering something like this to be a bigger pain than it's worth, but the group responses seemed to relay that with a vigor. Unless I misunderstood something, at least two production shops quoted pricing that made his offer to this group seem to be not so out of line. Again - considering that the initial appeal was made to what is essentially a hobby group.

When I read the initial post I wasn't the least bit interested. I still have to get this thing out of my garage that is taking up sawdust space (the never ending project car) and I can't even think about any woodworking until that's done. Even then, I wouldn't be interested in this type of thing. But... I did see where there could be some guys with a router who might just be interested in taking on a small project like this in the name of their first commissioned project. We see plenty of that kind of stuff here. Odd ball projects that a fellow does for a neighbor, or a church, or whatever. For that guy, a hundred bucks plus a router bit that he may never use again could very conceivably be an attractive offer in exchange for a few hours of his time and the sense of accomplishment he gets out of being contracted to do a job. Admitedly, that is the only sort of guy that I anticipated would be interested in this, but then again if the OP found just one guy like that here, he was golden and so was the fellow who took the work.

Ahem... ummmm... Rob... yer getting confused again. It's the binary groups that are supposed to be part of the anger management therapy...

[Larry Jaques]

On 16 Mar 2005 22:02:21 -0800, the inscrutable "Andrew P" spake:

That's a marvelous idea, Andrew. Please do, and let us know 2 things:

1) How many hours it takes you to perform this simple function on MDF.

and

2) How many prototypes it takes you to make one which works and fits the specs you posted.

Please be honest in reporting, too. I guarantee you'll be surprised at how complex the task actually is without a CNC machine and experience.

P.S: You said "mold" in the post, not prototype. The difference might be, say, 5 hours of detailing.

P.P.S: Did you get a quote from emachineshop?

P.P.P.S: Please post pictures of your proto when it's done.

- Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.

[WillR]

Gimme a break. Despite the sarcasm you got some well thought out replies

-- appropriate to your business acumen. Live with it.

If you learned nothing from these posts, then you are a fool or worse. Think on that long and hard.

Come back when you have respect for other people in business.

And oh yes... I too would love to see the photos. Please some close ups showing the quality of the compound angle joints.

If you found that our comments were substantially out of place I will be pleased to eat crow publicly.

BTW: I'll bet you charge too much for your food -- considering that all you do is fling some ingredients into a pan, burn it for a few minutes and fling it on a plate (probably plastic).

Sorry -- couldn't resist the analogy.

Best wishes...

[WillR]

So it wasn't $100 ????

So it was a prototype?

The Prototype was $180? Not $100?

So it did need a CNC machine?

Still don't know if MDF is suitable till you see it?

Look at the assumptions that were made by Morris Dovey... He then spent an hour on it. If he chose to subsidize you - good. If it was someone else fine. If you spent more of your time and more cash -- that is as it should be.

if you used e-machine shop then you did additional work and - we would have had to charge for the time?

Where did you get that tip?

What did you actually chose. MDF or metal or plastic?

Did I not suggest hidden requirements? Is that not now apparent?

Oh and learn how to ask your question correctly.

As in this is what I need. How would you make it and What would it cost.

Point made. Go away. Come back when you are a. reasonable and b. humble and c. appreciate the tips you did get.

You got something free -- good advice -- and now you rub it in that you used the information and now you wish to sneer.

Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

Good luck in your business -- you _will_ need it.

[WillR]

Rob:

He had me pissed enuff that I never really read your reply. Guess I have to admit the same...

Well put.

Just curious -- do Dorks like this one cause the need for AMT? Hoping that most of your customers are more reasonable...

PT Barnum (who I understand was misquoted -- but if he wasn't --) should have said... "There is an idiot born every minute."

[J. Clarke]

Or if you contact a manufacturer of food packaging they will probably provide you with a suitable prototype from their current production with the understanding that when you get your first round venture capital they'll fine tune it to your exact needs for the production runs.

Perhaps you'd have done better to say that you needed to make x number of plastic trays of thus and so form and could anybody give suggestions on a cheap way to make a mold.

If you could work with a _male_ mold instead of female it's 8 passes with the router from the looks of things, or it could be cut on a table saw for that matter, but would take more passes. If you absolutely _have_ to have a female mold then you could pull one in acrylic molding compound or fiberglass off of the male mold.

Making the mold you want directly in MDF without an NC machine and having it come out decent on the first try is going to be more effort than you expect.

[Robatoy]

[snipperized to be replied to later]

Oh, I always have a spray bottle of acetone handy. I open a blast gate, turn on the DC, and spray directly into the suction flow. I do that to keep the ground wires in the PVC ducting clean and spiffy. Sometimes the bags blow off the DC, dunno why.

All my cordless tools run better now that I have converted them to single-pole 270-degree 4.5 phase direct current. I can now make screws pop out of the side of all my cabinets MUCH faster than before.

[WillR]

Any chance you could publish the plans?

[Dave in Fairfax]

WillR wrote: snip

Are they FREE plans? %-) Dave in Fairfax