Re: Flat Earth Theory To Be Taught In Science Classes

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On 10/9/2005 5:21 PM Mike Marlow mumbled something about the following:

Follow the link I posted in my previous message. There you will find claims against it. I can post many more sites as well if you can't seem to find anything.
--
Odinn
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Mike Marlow wrote:

one peer-reviewed article with pictures and naming a specific site?
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Sorry Larry - don't have such a thing. Remember - I'm really in this for the discourse, not because I'm well versed on the matter, or hold an intent to persuade anyone. Sometimes I get a little something out of these things and sometimes it's just discourse.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Well, until you can come up with something that overrules the fossil evidence, I'll remain skeptical (and that's putting it mildly).
Dinosaur fossils are found in strata dated at,IIRC, 65 million years old and older.
Human (depending on your definition) fossils are found in strata dated no more than 4 million years ago. And homo sap not over 100,000 years or so, although that does seem to get pushed back a few thousand years from time to time.
Not much room there for coexistence :-).
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:59:05 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

actually, it sounds like you just mouthing off, making wild fundie claims and not being able to back them up.
oh well.
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Not at all. The basic truth of the matter is that the whole topic is something that has never been a compelling interest to me, but has at the same time held a mild curiosity within me. As a result of it not having been a compelling interest, I largely ignored it with the exception of being only casually aware of some claims from both sides. I didn't know for example that the dinosaur/man tracks in Texas had been brought into question by even those who had originally supported the finds until this thread. I remembered hearing about it a long time ago and it just kind of stuck in my mind. So, I threw it out there to see what the answers would be regarding it. To the extent that I have a casual interest in the stuff, this served a purpose for me. Likewise with the cave paintings.
Not trying to stir anything up or make wild fundie claims. Just inquiring a bit from a standpoint of being a not very studied individual on the matter. That's why I explained that in the very beginning. I will say that from my uneducated perspective, the wild claims are not limited to fundies.
Sorry if I intruded on a thread that is limited to those with higher degrees in these studies. I asked genuine questions, attempted to be civil in my approach, and only varied from that when I got fed up with some of the condescending attitudes that popped up from time to time.
Fundi - hmmmmm. Again, I'd have to ask what you mean by that. It's the second time a derogatory term has been tossed out inferring that having a faith is somehow the mark of a lesser man. I haven't given any indication of what my faith includes and you'd probably be surprised if you knew it. It certainly does not include a closed mind. But then again one with a closed mind does not enter into these discussion with questions, and even admissions of his own error, now does he?
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

It's as much or more the way you've thrown out the tidbits you've done--as if they're facts and w/o doing apparently the least be of rational thinking about whether there is any plausible basis for them... ...

Only if the poster posts a question in a declarative form. A question in English ends in a question mark and includes an interogative form, not declarative. At least the posts of yours I read lacked both. Hence, it's not at all surprising they were taken as declaratives and a statement of personal belief. ...
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Well Duane, one confirmation is all that is necessary to affirm what I feared. I do offer my apologies. I had hoped that by establishing myself in the manner that I did at the outset, that I would have laid a groundwork to be less concerned for how I posted things, and adopt a conversational manner. Clearly this is not the case. The tidbits were just my way of getting the things I was aware of out there at what seemed like an appropriate point.

No contest. Realize though that when one positions themselves as I did - something of a no-op at the level of intellectual battle on this particular field, it is easy and maybe even natural (at least it was to me) to assume that the other players recognize that you aren't trying to make "real" assertions. Hell - you've already admitted you can't. No matter. The point is well taken. I had assumed that my opening declarations had provided me a certain freedom in the manner in which I posted and like all assumptions...
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-Mike-
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Problem is, you're "aware of" things that have no basis in fact. Like the cave paintings of dinosaurs.
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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wrote:

Well - I can assure you there are a large number of people like me in that respect. One of the problems with anything that we don't really follow or stay abreast of is that the things we hear, or read, or encounter tend to stick with us and often times at the peril of having been proven to be wrong a long time ago. For those of us that don't stay abreast of this stuff, we often don't even know what has been proven to be wrong, false, etc. So... we bring up what we do "know". It's not in attempt to impress a fact, it's in attempt to be part of the conversation. Though it's only at a layman level, there is within most of us a desire to pick up a little something as we participate in these types of things.
Having said all of that - just what is the purpose of your comment Doug? I had just acknowledged that I had poorly articulated my thoughts, apologized and tried to explain (briefly) that my real intent was far different from that which I had apparently caused some to believe. You chime in with your comment which to be frank is pure bullshit. The implication in your statement is that there is a problem in being poorly informed on a matter. I suggest you leave yourself open to a large amount of ridicule if that's your position on things.
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-Mike-
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Mike, The problem here is that you stated things you think as if you knew them. And there have been so many posts in these threads it is impossible to keep track of an individual person's bona fides. So I suggest, not just to you, that statements of knowledge should include references to someone who does know, and that opinions should follow words like "I think ..." or "IMO" or such. It will make it easier to follow.
IMHO Steve

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And I'm supposed to feel *better* now that you tell me that? Just because "a large number of people" believe something does *not* make it true.

Then perhaps you should stay out of the debates? Certainly, if you insist on joining in under those circumstances, you should not be surprised when you are told that what you think you know... ain't so.

Perhaps you should consider the wisdom of making comments on subjects on which you *know* you are uninformed.

Incorrect. The message is that there is a problem with speaking publicly on subjects about which you are poorly informed.

I'm comfortable with that... Are you comfortable with the ridicule you risk inviting by asserting that man and dinosaurs coexisted based on the "evidence" of cave paintings allegedly depicting dinos? I notice you still haven't answered my challenge of a couple days ago to cite just *one* instance of a cave painting that clearly depicts something unambiguously recognizable as a dinosaur, that has *not* been shown to be a modern fake.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug - you're making an ass of yourself barking because you heard the howling in the woods.

Irrelevant. Feel as you will.

You clearly have no clue what you're braying about now Doug. It would behoove you to read what was posted before jumping off on a rant.

Perhaps you should read posts before you attempt to so soundly put another in their place. You need the practice.

Yawn.
You are making a fool of yourself Doug. I've acknowledged this stuff enough times and there's no point in doing so further just to satisfy your ego. I'm oh-so sorry if you feel left out because I did not humble myself before your obvious greater wisdom, but you just don't mean that much to me Doug. Take your self serving attitude and place it where... well, you know the rest.
Look - we've had decent enough conversations in this group in the past and there's probably no reason not to anticipate that going forward. You've elected though to jump on something that has been acknowledged and explained and which is not as you portray it. Get over it. It may come as a shock to you, but there are things in the world that are not as they appear to you. Clearly, I caused more than just you to take my comments the wrong way and I've stepped up to that. It's your turn now - I've set the record straight on the matter. Either accept it or not, but at this point any furtherance of this discussion is nothing more than a reflection of your insistence.
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-Mike-
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You have a curious idea of what's "relevant".

Huh? I've been reading the whole thread.

Are you responding to some other post?
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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especially something like cave paintings of dinosaurs, where all instances are deliberate frauds.
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On 10/12/2005 1:18 PM Mike Marlow mumbled something about the following:

If you THINK you know something, DAGS and find out before you post. This is the easiest way from getting slammed. At least then, you have something to back what you think you know, although there is still a good chance it's wrong.
--
Odinn
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Hi Mike,
At the risk of belaboring a point I'll try to illustrate why I think some of your comments were viewed as "statements" as opposed to a dialogue of questioning.
<SNIP>
BadgerDog:

Mike:
I agree that usenet can be a difficult medium for communication, which in some ways makes it even more important to try to make it clear what you are trying to communicate. Here's an example of your comments that seem to be more statements than questions:
"World Traveler" had written: <snip> ... The statements on ID that I've seen include: Man and dinosaurs coexisted.
Your response was: Now, I've been to museums that portray that very thing, have read about fossilized footprints of man and dinosaur (one inside the other).
Larry Blanchard responded: References, please.
Your response was: Fair question. I've seen museum displays that positioned man and dinosaur in NYC, and Albany, NY years ago. Don't know what they display now as that was many years ago. Can't tell you where I've read about the superimposed footprints. Seems it might have been National Geographic or similar. If my memory serves me correctly (which is a big assumption sometimes...), I believe the find might have been down in Texas or in that area. Not very convincing reference, but it's the best I can do.
My comments: Granted, you acknowledge that you are not an expert in the field, but it seems to me that you are making statements of "fact" supporting that dinosaurs and man coexisted as opposed to simply raising questions about. I would hope that you can see how this looks like you are stating "facts", even under your umbrella of your lack of knowledge.
For an absurd analogy, what if I said: I'm not a mechanic, and I don't really understand how engines work, but I know of a solution to our energy problems because I read an article about a guy that developed a car with an engine that runs on urine. I can see how you could interpret this statement as a way to open a dialoge to discuss whether there really is an engine that runs on urine, but I think a more common interpretation would be that I was stating a "fact".
I would also say that your comments on the cave paintings sounded more like an argument that there are cave paintings of dinosaurs as opposed to raising it as a question/discussion topic.
Best Regards, BadgerDog
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BadgerDog:
I too wish to not belabor the point. It is true that like beauty, interpretation is "in the eye of the beholder". I accept the responsibility that if I want to be understood in a certain manner, the ultimate responsibility is on my shoulders to make sure that I articulate in such a way as to ensure that outcome. My mistake was in assuming that I had purchased a certain literary license for myself by stating my lack of qualifications up front, and that I could be more lax in my presentation than it turns out was acceptable. I appreciate your candor and your comments.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Do you _really_ think it any more credible that coyotes and apes coinhabited with dinosaurs than did humans?
--

FF


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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:14:31 -0700, fredfighter wrote:

Especially since coyotes and the rest of the apes hadn't evolved yet, either. NEWS FLASH: Homo sapiens is a great ape.
What are the creationists smoking when they dream up their crap? There is this great, wonderful, awe-inspiring universe just on the other side of their eyeballs, and they persist in self-delusion. Here's another news flash: there is no Santa Claus, God, or Easter Bunny. They are all fairy tales for the amusement and control of children and the feeble-minded.
The cave paintings of Lascaux and La grotte Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc, to mention only two, are a testament to the wonderful creativity of the human mind. People, just like us, produced images of their mental worlds. The artists left us a magnificent gift across the millenia. To diminish the work of those great artists by deliberately misconstruing the content to support one's delusion is despicable.
Understanding the world is hard work. No one can any longer know the full content of human knowledge. That is no excuse not to try. Some give up, and accept a small, dark, dank, and smelly room instead of facing the gaping universe. I pity them. They can at any time escape their self-imposed exile from reality by cracking open a book (non-fiction, duh. I suggest the 500s shelf at the library.). Ignorance is curable. Willful ignorance is tougher to beat.
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