Re: eWoodShop - Mission Bar Stool - Final glue-up

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On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:23:55 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Good gluing weather, but too dang hot and muggy to do much else, I ran the AC most of the day.

EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832576860615491346
EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832320111165777202
EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5832612963237689426
Stools look good, Leather?
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Looking great!!
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Han
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Really nice work. So what do you consider an acceptable temperature for gluing? And for how long?
My bookcases may be at that stage in a few weeks, and I live in NYC. It hasn't been that cold yet this winter, and my garage is warmed by the heat pipe that runs through it. It's not nearly as warm as the house though; I'm guessing 50 or a little below that on a very cold day. I've occasionally used a space heater so I can work in shirtsleeves, but the heater is not the sort that I would allow to run unattended. Which reminds me, wouldn't one of those oil-filled electric "radiators" allow a serious woodworker like yourself to work whenever you like?

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On 1/13/2013 9:57 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Thank you!
> So what do you consider an acceptable temperature

Depends upon the glue. The below is strictly my experience with the glues I use the most:
With PVA's there should be a chalk temperature published for the particular glue. For example, Franklin's Titebond III has a CT of 47F, but for critical items that have good deal of joint stress, like chairs, I prefer not use it below 60F, and then only on parts where a mechanical fastener of some type is used in combination. For critical parts with PVA's and as a general rule, I prefer 65F+, 70F+ if possible.
Keep in mind that, with the PVA's as with most glues, your open/assembly time will be decreased as the temperature is increased, so there is a sweet spot where you can use the ambient temperature of the shop, the glue in the bottle, and the material (all factors which need to be taken into consideration) to your advantage for complicated glue-ups.
With plastic resin glues, which I mainly use when doing curved/veneered pieces, the temperature range is even narrower. I prefer not use a plastic resin glue below 65F, preferably on the higher side. (for veneering work, you can always throw an electric blanket over the piece being glued)
Polyurethane glues, which I rarely use, you're pretty much good above 50F. I don't like them, for no particular reason except that I've always distrusted the hype. Might well be a case of shame on me, but so be it.
In a nutshell, and depending upon the glue being used, I prefer not to do critical glue-ups if the temperature of the wood, material, and glue has not been at an ambient room temperature of 60F+ for 24 hours.
Problem here is that it might be 32F in the shop at 3AM, and 65F at noon that same day. Even keeping your glue bottle inside a warmer environment, the material may not be, at or above, the desired "room temperature" for 24 hours.
YMMV ...
Note: if you really want the best of all worlds, longest open/assembly times, and application temperature range, use hot hide glue.
I personally find hide glue inconvenient, fussy and, being grade dependent for the purpose, subject to the honesty of the purveyor. I probably would prefer to use nothing but, however the other glue choices are simply too convenient in this fast paced world we have to deal with. Sad ... but true ... again, may well be shame on me.

I tried to use one of those in a construction trailer on the job site out in the country of Jan 2010 ... it was total joke.
I don't like the idea of the unattended part of the 24 hour cycle needed to keep the shop and material at the proper temperature with propane/kerosene type heaters; and 240v electric heaters of the various types are expensive to operate for the BTU output necessary to do the job, and not cost effective because we simply don't have that many cold days where gluing is a necessity to justify the expense.
I just live with what mother nature deals at the time, just as the woodworkers who came long before us did ... :)
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On 1/13/13 11:20 AM, Swingman wrote:

I think the only hype that should not be believed is the "strength" part. Blame that on the "Gorilla" branding. Everything else lives up to the hype, waterproof, bonds almost anything to almost anything else. But yeah, for woodworking I can't think of any task for which regular PVA or Titebond III wouldn't perform a whole bunch better or for which I wouldn't choose epoxy over poly.
It's like that ond baseball scout joke where he describes a bad player... "He can't hit, but he's slow."
With poly glues, "It ain't strong, but it's messy." :-)
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Well, as usual, I have gotten answers to questions I hadn't thought to ask, which I will store in my extra cans of worms.

I've got Titebond Original. The chalk temperature (anyone know the derivation of the term?) is listed as "approximately 50".

I have just read that the open time for "original" is less than the others. I wonder if that will matter in my application. I'll be putting 5 horizontals into 10 dadoes in two verticals. I'm hardly quick about anything in woodworking, but that doesn't sound like it will take too long.
so there is a

"The material". That makes perfect sense, now that you've pointed it out, but I doubt that I'd have thought of it myself. I guess I could take the pieces into he house for a day.

I doubt that I can keep my garage (safely) at that temperature in the winter without a heater that I don't yet own. But I can quickly heat it up to 70. The wood and glue could live in the house for a day or two prior to glue-up.

My garage, but for the one glaring flaw (the door) is as well insulated as the rest of the house, so it doesn't take much to get it warm. The heater I have - an ancient device that is sort of a cross between a toaster, a fun-house mirror and a fan - is not one I would trust overnight.

I would never consider those.

The heater I have - an ancient device that is sort of a cross between a toaster, a fun-house mirror and a fan - is not one I would trust overnight. It's 110V.

They were pretty advanced; everything was cordless.
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From Franklin:
"When glue dries, the loss of water pulls the adhesive particles together with enough force to form a continuous film. If the drying temperature is below a critical point, water evaporation is not sufficient to pull the particles together, leaving them in the joint. The dried film in the joint will appear whiter than normal. This is known as "chalking" and the critical temperature is the "chalk temperature." When chalking occurs, the glued joint loses strength and could result in a failed bond."
*Chalk temperature indicates the lowest recommended temperature at which the glue, air and materials can be during application, to assure a good bond.
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Beautiful! How did you make the (curved) backs?

Pictures?
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On 1/13/2013 7:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Thank you ... cut them out with a bandsaw:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopMissionBarStool#5819638318036909666
Continue to scroll right half a dozen photos or so.
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Thanks! They didn't look cut, rather bent.
You just answered a dozen questions for me. ...like how to cut the mortises on an angle. A: You don't. ;-)
Pictures of the upholstery process would be appreciated, too. Again, great stuff! Some day...
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On 1/13/2013 10:53 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I devised that particular jig for cutting mortises in chair back rails for the Multi-Router seven years ago, and it easily allows compound angles for mortises if need be.
Here's another way I do it with a plunge router base:
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/MissionChairCrestJig6.JPG
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/MissionChairCrestJig7.JPG
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You don't sleep much do you? Time and time again you offer up pictures of something you're building. I've got to say, you and Leon seem to be some of the most prodigious carpenters I've ever seen.
The only explanation I can come up with is someone has spiked your Texas water with some type of workaholic chemical.
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On 1/14/2013 9:46 AM, Dave wrote:

Yeah ... it's called "woodworking", which, when the "Subject" above does NOT contain "OT" (by popular and considerate usage/convention) is supposedly the subject of this little gathering, eh? :)
BTW, wait until you see what Leon is working on now. Got a SU preview Saturday and I'm envious ...
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On 1/14/2013 10:07 AM, Swingman wrote:

LOL Well not the same degree of difficulty as in your previous set of chairs and the current set. Hopefully it will be as successful as your master piece set of chairs. Ill start a new thread so as to hopefully not hijack this one. ;`)
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