Re: Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

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Yep. But if there is a god/gods and he/she/they punish me for following conclusions I reached using the intelligence they gave me, p..s on'em.
I'm reminded of a mathematician friend whose philosophy was that if god created him, he was gods problem, god wasn't his. Sure glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when he said that :-).
--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

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I agree that we will not convince one another

OTOH, if I'm right, you will know it and will not like that knowledge.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety Army General Richard Cody +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Boy yeah, where we couldn't all be if we just didn't have parents. No sense getting "brainwashed" by one's parents when we have factual newspapers and TV to rely on.

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nospam snipped-for-privacy@mesanetworks.net says...

Parents should be one major factor in the education of their children. When they home school, they become the only major factor.
I find most newspapers to be reasonably factual. Except for the editorial pages, which are supposed to be opinions. And most I've read have been careful to include both conservative and liberal columns. Maybe I've just been lucky.
As for TV, it does seem to be a bit opinionated :-). Equal parts of Fox Spews and PBS should balance out fairly well though :-).
--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

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wrote:

I assume you also oppose and tax credits or government subsidies for daycare so mothers can work.
Will your church provide for the children of the poor so the parents can work at less than the minimum wage and survive?
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Guess so - don't want to pay for your stuff, you're right.
Maybe your neighbors and you can set up water-pail brigades on your dirt roads in case you have a fire. I'm keeping my money in my pocket.
Twit.
Banty
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wrote:

Gee, you want us to pay taxes for a fire department that will fight fires at your house, I see, but not to educate the children of your neighbors who don't have the money for private school tuition?
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Maybe he can front the money to pave the roads to his house...
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dirt
Perhaps you two products of the public education system could stop and think - new as that may be to you.
Is the purpose education or indoctrination? The parent with a voucher can choose, the parent without cannot.
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Look up "presumption".

Look up "false dilemma".
Banty
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can
You're right. I can tell that you're not educated at all.
Allow me to predigest the thought for you. If the objective is education, then vouchers for everyone is the way to give choice to rich and poor alike.
If the object is indoctrination with the current crop of political correctness, force everyone into the public school system.
Now spread your cheeks and slide your head from that cleft between your buttocks.
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The parent with money can already choose and needs no voucher to do so.
And any parent who wants to choose a religious school most likely can do so and get private help from their church, they too don't need a voucher.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Let me make it clear again that I have no brief for schools based on religion. What are needed are means of teaching academics, through schools or, as I believe, otherwise.
There are few academic private schools. With vouchers, they can be formed easily. An academic school will have to drop the idea of age grouping completely, and even the idea of a student being in one "grade".
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
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Remote classes and independent study. Remote classes are within budgetary reach; one problem with doing things in schools is that there may not be enough local children for a class. We do not know nearly enough to dispense with the use of teachers, and I doubt we ever will, as computers do not have the reasoning power of people; they are super-fast sub-imbeciles.
Do not ask me to produce a fully designed educational process; it cannot be done that quickly. It will have to be done by those who do not follow lesson plans; they will have to improvise as they go. But these people are not the ones who can teach the same course over and over, so they will have to provide instructions for the ones who can learn concepts, but who are not too creative to do the same thing over and over.
--
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That presumes that there is a meaningful difference. Before public schools, there were only church schools, and their purpose was explicitly "indoctrination" - the teaching of church doctrine. The concept that education might be something *other than* indoctrination is a relatively recent idea.
If one reads Thomas Jefferson's early proposal for public schools, it is clear that he intended it to be both. Kids would learn to read and write, and they would also be indoctrinated into American values. As implemented, I think it has kept true to that dual intention.
It is also safe to say that virtually every private school is equally intended to both educate and indoctrinate.

The concept of compulsory public education was specifically intended to REMOVE the choice from the parent whether to attend or not attend school. Meanwhile, the kid doesn't get a choice; why should the parent? You don't own your children; you are merely stewards for (take our choice of) God or society until they are adults (as defined by society, not parents) and have the right under the 1st amendment to tell their parents where to shove it.
lojbab
--
lojbab snipped-for-privacy@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
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Public schools were first promoted by Martin Luther (See the underlined section):
http://spindleworks.com/library/rfaber/luther_edu.htm <The need for educational reform was urgent at the beginning of the < sixteenth century. At that time there existed no school system as < such, and teaching was often limited to the children of wealthy < merchants and city rulers. In many places the Roman Catholic church < supervised the training of the youth in monasteries, cloisters, and < other church-run institutions. But these were falling into disrepute < and disrepair, as the populace reacted against the corruption and < abuses among the clergy. Many parents simply stopped the training of < their offspring, so that one of the first tasks of the reformers was < to convince parents that the spiritual well-being of their children < was more important than their physical comfort. ...
<Establishing and Maintaining Schools (1524) < <Of the two which will be treated here, one is the letter "To the < Councilmen of All Cities in Germany That They Establish and Maintain < Christian Schools" (1524). < <(1) The letter was written in response to the decline of the < church-run schools, as well as to the anti-educational sentiments < that arose in Wittenberg and elsewhere. One of the premises < underlying the arguments in the letter is the doctrine concerning the < duties of the temporal government to ensure decency and good order in < society; for this reason the letter was addressed not to parents but < civic leaders. More than the parents, the councilmen possessed the < political and financial resources to erect the schools, and < impressing upon them the moral duty to promote the kingdom of God < strengthened Luther's cause. Luther therefore reminds the councillors < that by their authority from God they must promote a godly society, < and he seeks to convince them that proper education would benefit the < state as well as the church. < <It should be noted, however, that Luther not only addresses the < councilmen in this open letter; he also writes to the citizens, his < "beloved Germans". For whereas the responsibility of the councilmen < is to develop a community in which Christian education may flourish, < citizens and especially parents are called by the priesthood of all < believers to nurture their offspring. Luther founds the parental < responsibility firmly on the Bible, citing several texts as proof. < One is Psalm 78:5-7, where we read how God "commanded our fathers to < teach [His laws] to their children; that the next generation might < know them ... and arise and tell them to their children, so that they < should set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God." < Luther also refers to the commandment to honour one's father and < mother; the parents' responsibility in enacting this commandment is < evidenced by the injunction in Deuteronomy 21:18-21 that rebellious < youths be brought by them to the elders for corporal punishment. It < is the duty of the parents to teach children obedience to all in < authority over them. God, having established a covenant with us, < "entrusted [children] to us ... and will hold us strictly accountable < for them (353)." Luther also reminds parents that for proper training < in the faith, Moses freely advises the young to "... ask your father < and he will show you, your elders and they will tell you (Deut. < 32:7)"; for parents have the duty to instruct their children in these < things. < <And yet Luther writes mainly to the councilmen, for he realizes that < there are citizens who neglect their parental duties. Some may not < understand their God-given responsibility, others may not be suited < for the duty, "...for they themselves have learned nothing but how to < care for their bellies (355)." A third group of parents is one which < does not have the opportunity or the means to educate its children. < "Necessity compels us, therefore, to engage public-school teachers < for the children (355)." While it may not appear unusual from the < modern perspective, Luther's advocacy of a community-organized school
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < was novel. Assuming that the state would be ruled by Christian ^^^^^^^^^^ < leaders, Luther imposes upon the government the task of overseeing < reformed education. Not anticipating the conflict between state and < church that was to develop later, Luther proposes a system of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < education that would benefit all members of society, including boys ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < and girls, wealthy and poor. Civic schools would belong to a system ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < of institutions throughout the land and would operate in harmony with < the church. In this manner, Luther thought, education could serve the < reform of religion and society. < <Having alerted both parents and civic leaders to their respective < duties in the education of the youth, Luther next describes the < benefits of schooling for state and church. The councilmen are < enjoined to support education, for "a city's best and greatest < welfare, safety and strength consist rather in its having many able, < learned, wise, honorable, and well-educated citizens (356)" than in < "mighty walls and magnificent buildings (355)". For the proper < government of the earthly realm, education should be viewed as an < important means in producing responsible citizens. In short, the < councilmen have a vested interest in the training of the young, who < will be the future civic leaders.
While modern public schools in the US have rejected the religious aspect and justification of education, the reasoning (described in the last paragraph) proposed by Luther for the state to provide education is still basically the reasoning behind public schooling today, and the concept of parental responsibility coupled with the three groups of parents that do not fulfil that responsibility remains the primary reason why public schooling is necessary.
lojbab
--
lojbab snipped-for-privacy@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
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wrote:

Tell me you don't want students indoctrinated into thinking that the capitalist system of economics as it exists in the US is the *best* system that can be devised. I don't believe that you want *free thinkers* if they oppose your own ideas.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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wrote:

LOL. And exactly how will you enforce this on usenet.
I will answer *if* I feel like answering. If you ignore it, that's fine since I am not writing for *you* but for those who lurk so they can see how poor your arguments are.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Absolutely.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Explain.
Banty
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