Yep. But if there is a god/gods and he/she/they punish me for following conclusions I reached using the intelligence they gave me, p..s on'em.
I'm reminded of a mathematician friend whose philosophy was that if god created him, he was gods problem, god wasn't his. Sure glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when he said that :-).
I agree that we will not convince one another
OTOH, if I'm right, you will know it and will not like that knowledge.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety Army General Richard Cody +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
I assume you also oppose and tax credits or government subsidies for daycare so mothers can work.
Will your church provide for the children of the poor so the parents can work at less than the minimum wage and survive?
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Is this money for woodworking classes?
If not, what's it have to do with this news group.
Guess so - don't want to pay for your stuff, you're right.
Maybe your neighbors and you can set up water-pail brigades on your dirt roads in case you have a fire. I'm keeping my money in my pocket.
Twit.
Banty
Gee, you want us to pay taxes for a fire department that will fight fires at your house, I see, but not to educate the children of your neighbors who don't have the money for private school tuition?
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Maybe he can front the money to pave the roads to his house...
Perhaps you two products of the public education system could stop and think - new as that may be to you.
Is the purpose education or indoctrination? The parent with a voucher can choose, the parent without cannot.
Look up "presumption".
Look up "false dilemma".
Banty
The parent with money can already choose and needs no voucher to do so.
And any parent who wants to choose a religious school most likely can do so and get private help from their church, they too don't need a voucher.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Absolutely.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
You're right. I can tell that you're not educated at all.
Allow me to predigest the thought for you. If the objective is education, then vouchers for everyone is the way to give choice to rich and poor alike.
If the object is indoctrination with the current crop of political correctness, force everyone into the public school system.
Now spread your cheeks and slide your head from that cleft between your buttocks.
That presumes that there is a meaningful difference. Before public schools, there were only church schools, and their purpose was explicitly "indoctrination" - the teaching of church doctrine. The concept that education might be something *other than* indoctrination is a relatively recent idea.
If one reads Thomas Jefferson's early proposal for public schools, it is clear that he intended it to be both. Kids would learn to read and write, and they would also be indoctrinated into American values. As implemented, I think it has kept true to that dual intention.
It is also safe to say that virtually every private school is equally intended to both educate and indoctrinate.
The concept of compulsory public education was specifically intended to REMOVE the choice from the parent whether to attend or not attend school. Meanwhile, the kid doesn't get a choice; why should the parent? You don't own your children; you are merely stewards for (take our choice of) God or society until they are adults (as defined by society, not parents) and have the right under the 1st amendment to tell their parents where to shove it.
lojbab
What is a "hyperegalitarian?"
*block this. I have read that there is a voucher program *for handicapped children in Florida, but a student going *to an academic school could not use this unless the school *would take all children with that handicap, no matter how *weak their mentalities were.I'm not sure how this has anything to do with my comments.
*And don't downplay the minority quota problem. Indianapolis *has a magnet school with academic requirements. A girl was *turned down because this would have meant too small a *proportion of minority students; if there was a minority *student who qualified and wanted to attend, they could both *have been admitted.I'm also not sure how minority quota rules (which I think, at this point in our society, don't work well, but that's another story) have anything to do with vouchers.
*The educationists and hyperegalitarians cannot admit that *there is a large range of mental abilities, and even if *they changed now, the public schools could not do what is *needed in a generation, alas.OK, well - I think there is a huge range of ability, I think our public schools are failing, and I think vouchers would probably make them worse... but I have no idea what you're talking about.
My impression of Herman Rubin's basic schtick is that all educational purposes and goals should be subordinate to the goal of maximally academically (meaning, optimizing for rapidity and level of complexity) educating the most cognitally able students.
Banty
There was essentially universal male education among Jews for the last 2500 years. It was private, with the community providing for those who could not afford it.
Also, competition was definitely allowed. Competition was restricted in other enterprises, as a grocer was not allowed to open shop too close to another, but teachers were excluded from this restriction. Also, it was recognized that ability differences needed to be accommodated.
Let me make it clear again that I have no brief for schools based on religion. What are needed are means of teaching academics, through schools or, as I believe, otherwise.
There are few academic private schools. With vouchers, they can be formed easily. An academic school will have to drop the idea of age grouping completely, and even the idea of a student being in one "grade".
The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to schools which they could manage, was good. When it came to "racial balance", it was bad.
Second, vouchers will not kill private schools by
Which is why most of the opponents of vouchers oppose them.
Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal in any manner.
A good voucher program is not of this type.
A purely academic voucher program would not have such restrictions. It would allow those who can benefit from a type of school to do so.
Nothing can make our schools better in the short run. What vouchers can do is to enable academics to be used to set up better educational programs than the present schools could, even if they wanted to.
Tell us you'll fight your own fires, and never drive on a paved public road, and we'll go away.
Deal?
Banty
Explain.
Banty
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