Re: Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

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The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to schools which they could manage, was good. When it came to "racial balance", it was bad.
    Second, vouchers will not kill private schools by

Which is why most of the opponents of vouchers oppose them.

Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal in any manner.

A good voucher program is not of this type.

A purely academic voucher program would not have such restrictions. It would allow those who can benefit from a type of school to do so.

Nothing can make our schools better in the short run. What vouchers can do is to enable academics to be used to set up better educational programs than the present schools could, even if they wanted to.
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* *>*>Huh? First of all, I don't believe bussing killed public schools or *>*>private schools or anything at all (i'm not sure what you're trying to say *>*>bussing did, actually).* *The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to *schools which they could manage, was good. When it came *to "racial balance", it was bad.
I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed" any particular schools.
*>*We have to watch out for the hyperegalitarians trying to * *>What is a "hyperegalitarian?"* *Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal *in any manner.
No it's not. There is no such word.
*>*The educationists and hyperegalitarians cannot admit that *>*there is a large range of mental abilities, and even if *>*they changed now, the public schools could not do what is *>*needed in a generation, alas. * *>OK, well - I think there is a huge range of ability, I think our public *>schools are failing, and I think vouchers would probably make them *>worse... but I have no idea what you're talking about.* *Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.
Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!
*What vouchers can do is to enable academics to be used *to set up better educational programs than the present *schools could, even if they wanted to.
I disagree.
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Hillary Israeli, VMD
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Another fantasy.
Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union members.
Capability of teachers? You mean we'd check the quality of their output - students - instead of their certificate? Yeah, that's about likely. Once you're in, even the area of certification is meaningless.
Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by money. Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your steward comes down on you.
Conventional non-thinking.
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George wrote:

I agree. Cash isn't the cure, but I also know that locally anyway, and over a fairly wide local area, teachers routinely stay after school, and come in early, to assist students who need it (or who wish to improve on already good work). No "stewards" have anything to say about it.
Dedication and capability, though, are highly variable, even in the same teacher over time. And blaming the mess totally on teachers and teachers unions is an absolutely horrendous mistake. Certainly, piss poor teachers don't do a good job. But, then again, neither do piss poor students, many of whom are trained, if that's the word, to disregard anything that doesn't meet specific inanities. Parents must take a role, and the greater the force and direction of the parental role, the more likely the student is to be successful, even in the face of mediocre, or worse, teaching.
Money is a useful adjunct when you're trying to attract good teachers, but it is only a true motivator, IMO, for those in the early stges of their careers. Somehow, 35K in Alexandria, VA sounds like a lot more than 29K 200 miles southwest. At this point, those doing personnel searches in the SW of VA haven't learned to point up the differences in things like rent ($750 and up in the Alex area, $450 in the SW area, same square footage, condition, etc.), while gas in the SW area is 15% cheaper, food the same, etc. And, biggest blessing of all, you're not dealing with the slop over from big city traffic (largest city in the area is 95,000).
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Well, dragons notwithstanding, wages are great, job guarantees are better, and time off for those who want it (why some got into it anyway) is abundant.
As to salaries - I thought 45 in the boondocks was a _lot_ more than 75 in the inner city. My sister-in-law, having gone back to elementary, resists all effort to put her back in middle school where many are larger than she. Smart woman.
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I'll try not to grow my kid too big, sorry 'bout that.
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Would that we decide that we need people who are highly motivated to make businesses suceed, and not those motivated by mere money, to run our corporations. So clearly we've gone the wrong route by paying CEO's so much.
Your non-conventional thinking is wonderful!
Banty (hey, sports too! - think we could convince Steinbrenner??)
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wrote:

Right. Most of the teachers *I* know got into teaching for the Big Bucks.
And I know MANY teachers who stay after school to help kids -- and even spend evening or weekend hours available to help -- and none have gotten in trouble with their unions. Heck, even when unions have issued a "work to rule" order, some teachers ignore it and continue to put in hours over and above what is required by contract.
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Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care


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*
* *> *Nothing can make our schools better in the short run.*> *> Well, actually, a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly *> capable and dedicated teachers would certainly improve them quickly!*> * *Another fantasy.
Obviously I do not believe a massive rapid infusion of cash and influx of highly capable and dedicated teachers is forthcoming. I stand by my statement that this would in fact improve schools quickly.
*Cash would be consumed by the tenured - but newly enriched - union members.
Not if it was budgeted for other uses. Teachers do not usually have a contractual clause stating all new district income must be equally distributed among tenured faculty or anything!
*Capability of teachers?
Is English not your first language? Capability: (noun)power or ability, the extent of someone's abilities. Does that help?
*You mean we'd check the quality of their output - students - instead of *their certificate?
No, I don't mean that. I did not speak as to the method of determining the capability of teachers as that is not my area of expertise. Since you ask, I will comment that the method you propose seems foolish - seems to promote things like "teaching to the test," for one, and seems as if it would be harmful to those teachers who take on groups of less-capable students! What seems fairer to me would be a combination of looking at the educational background of teachers, letters of recommendation, and percent increase in grade level or test scores in students. But as I said, that's not my area of expertise, and I'm just saying that having increased numbers of very capable teachers could only help the situation.
*Yeah, that's about likely.
None of this is LIKELY. But a statement was made that NOTHING could help. I countered this with a description of things I think actually WOULD help.
*Dedication? When you motivate by money, you attract those motivated by *money.
I don't get your point. Who said anything about motivating by money? I believe part of the definition of "capable and dedicated" is "motivated by a desire to do a good job," for one thing. The kind of teacher I'm talking about would be available to help students who were having problems, via telephone if necessary, or some other arrangement, for example.
* Try staying after school to help some kids and see how fast your steward * comes down on you.
Hmmm. I went to a public school; I stayed after school to do extra work with teachers pretty regularly. I have friends who are teachers; they help kids during their breaks or after hours pretty regularly. I don't know what you are talking about.
*Conventional non-thinking.
Now, now. Which is it? Fantasy, or conventional?
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Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
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It caused them to lower their standards. This did more than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to think.

Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

We have lots of dedicated teachers. But we have a curriculum set up by those who do not understand subject matter, especially at the administrative level. The "new math" debacle of 45 years ago showed that the teachers could not learn concepts, but could only proceed by plug and chug methods. A large proportion of those taught to read by the whole word method were unable to learn to make good use of the alphabet later. Grammar is almost out, and structure likewise.
Capable teachers would have to be those who understand concepts and are willing to teach them, and we need to allow them to be taught, which means throwing out almost the entire curriculum. These teachers would mainly have to be those not taking education courses, and hence not being able to be credentialed. This CAN be done.
What cannot be done quickly is to produce the revised curriculum. It took years to produce and test the "new math" curriculum before it was introduced in the public schools. With a "grade" system, it is hard to see how a concept-oriented curriculum can work, as one cannot provide a schedule for learning a concept.
There were highly unsuccessful attempts to teach concepts to the teachers, the same concepts which could be taught to the children. This has, if anything, gotten considerably worse.

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On 5 May 2005 21:09:30 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

LOL. It is certainly true that words are coined daily. Interestingly, the children in the fourth grade class I substituted in today were reading Frindle about just such a possibility.
http://www.frindle.com/pages/wherefrindleidea.html
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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I am not the one who coined it, or at least I was not the one who brought it into use. One which is a little harder, and also refers to the PC, is
    hyperinfracaniphilia.
We have too much of this as well.
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* *>*The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to *>*schools which they could manage, was good. When it came *>*to "racial balance", it was bad.* *>I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed" *>any particular schools.* *It caused them to lower their standards. This did more *than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly *hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to *think.
I must misunderstand still. If you are talking about bussing simply to equalize for racial balance, then how can this result in a lowering of standards? You mean the standard was to have white kids, and adding in black kids lowered the standard? Or you mean the standard was to have kids from the Right Side of the Tracks, and adding in kids from the Wrong Side lowered the standard? Either way, I'm not liking your thinking here.
*>*>What is a "hyperegalitarian?"* *>*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal *>*in any manner.* *>No it's not. There is no such word.* *Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.
Words are generally supposed to effect communication. Using made-up words hardly furthers that goal. Just my opinion!
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If the schools were teaching a curriculum, with the levels of classes maintained, it would not be too bad, but it might still be a problem. But by this time, it had already been the practice to reduce the content to what the weaker students could learn, the "lowest common denominator".
In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than an hour to the "school day". Before integration, black children frequently went to schools farther than the white schools they were asking to get in. But busing for racial balance provided for a lot less time for learning, homework, and other activities.
Also, no matter where you put the tracks, the kids on one side and those on the other side will not have the same mental abilities nor the same types of opportunities to learn beyond the limitations of the schools, from the beginning. The schools in the 30's tried to eliminate these opportunities, but after Sputnik, they were forced to bring the parents back into the loop.

I would expect someone who understands English to be able to understand "hyperegalitarian" without much difficulty. Even "hyperinfracaniphiliac" should not be too hard.
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On 12 May 2005 10:50:14 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is. Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to build schools closer to their homes.
-- Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between them. Each has schools. Busing students from one area to the other just to get racial balance is what is stupid.
I believe that we will eventually have much done with electronic classes. There are not that many things which require physical contact to learn. More and more of this IS being done now in regions where the distances are great. This can also be done where students of a given type are not concentrated in sufficient numbers.
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snipped-for-privacy@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably would have no problem with it.
lojbab
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I'd like to get a voucher to learn some more woodworking. I thought this was a woodworking NG. Start your own NG for politics and leave our NG alone.

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<>>>>In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely <>>>>LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than <>>>>an hour to the "school day". Before integration, <>>>>black children frequently went to schools farther <>>>>than the white schools they were asking to get in. <>>>>But busing for racial balance provided for a lot <>>>>less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Racial balance has NEVER been legislated; what has been legislated is no racial discrimination.
It is one thing to travel to a school which gives a substantially stronger education, but is spending two hours a day doing nothing worth it? Busing two ways to get racial balance certainly does not get justified by this type of argument.
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THIS IS A WOODWORKING NEWS GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
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