RE: Cudos to Apex Tool Group

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Leon wrote:

I think the health care workers, at least those at the hospital level, are being treated pretty well financially. They have "tough" working conditions too (12-hour+ shifts, as the norm, in a tough environment).

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On 3/22/2015 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:

Some are but there are many behind the scenes that you don't see and now that the government is involved the waste of money cut short what could be paid to workers. It is ridiculous that you have to hire staff to simply collect what the government owes.
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On 3/22/15 4:35 PM, Bill wrote:

True. Plus they are well educated and well trained and have the lives of other people in their hands every day. Yet some auto workers with a GED make more than them.
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On 3/22/2015 4:43 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

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On 3/22/15 4:30 PM, Leon wrote:

If a movie makes a billion dollars because I'm in it, then it's not unfair pay. It's the free market.
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On 3/22/2015 4:38 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

You think? Does your contribution to society for being in the movie make you worth a salary of $50,000,000? This is our society but on this path no one will be able to afford to go to the movies. I understand how we think this way and I understand why we are in the shape we are in. We put too much value in things that make us happy today but not for all of the tomorrows.
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On 3/22/15 4:47 PM, Leon wrote:

So now we have to "contribution to society" in order to be paid well? If that's the yardstick then very few people on earth should be paid well.
If I build a mousetrap that 500 million want to buy, do I not deserve that money?
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On 3/22/2015 4:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Noooooooo! The more our products or services contribute to society the more deserving we are of the high pay. If you work to do something that greatly benefits society as you would work playing a game. Which would you pick as the job that deserves the better pay. I don't really determine a persons worth by how much money he makes. I just believe that if you are providing a product or service that benefits one or many people, what you charge is of more value than a person that simply entertains. Value for money spent is more important. Is entertainment important, absolutely but IMHO not a necessity.

Here is how I am looking at it.
You work 3 years to build mouse traps that nets you a profit of 25 million. Your product helps countless people with an actual need to rid their home of vermin.
You act in a movie that takes 3 years to film. You net a profit of 10 million. The movie you act is a box office hit for 6 weeks.
You put in the exact amount of time and work for both the mouse traps and the entertainment. BUT you earn 10 million more making the traps.
Which of the two jobs would you say benefited society the most therefore being the most deserved?
Now I am not saying that you don't deserve what you get with either pick, using our society's way of thinking and beliefs. A year from now while the traps are still in use and the movie is all but forgotten which would job would make you feel the best about what you have done?
"IMHO" if you sell your customers a product that benefits them for more than a few hours, dollar for dollar, you are more deserving of what you earn.
And again I don't condemn any one for making as much money as they can by doing what they want to do. This is how we have been conditioned to think in our society. You get all you can get while the getting is good, you are entitled. And "IMHO" that is the problem.
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On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:55:42 -0500, Leon wrote:

That's a pretty good summary. The problem lies in the "want to do" part. I've known a lot of computer programmers who hate what they do but got into it because it paid well. And since there are so few good ones to go around, they get away with it.
As an aside, I started in the late '50s. Companies were trying to devise tests to find people they could train to do programming.Never did get a really good test, but the best they came up with was 3 questions:
1. Do you like to do crossword puzzles? 2. Do you like to take tests? 3. Do you like to do jigsaw puzzles?
If you said no to all 3, they showed you the door. If you said yes to all 3 they offered you the corner office :-). It did weed out the ones who were hopeless, but wasn't as good at finding only the excellent ones. A lot of mediocre to just adequate passed the test.
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On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:28:15 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard

In the late '70s and early '80s, IBM was retraining every technician and secretary to become a programmer. The training was pretty intense and there was no guarantee of a job if you failed the course but they got a *lot* of programmers out of the deal.
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On 3/22/15 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:

Substitute anything that doesn't have any moral value to you for mousetrap in my example. Candy bar. Software app. Breast implant. Bald Eagle trap. :-)
You're putting your own moral value on services or things and saying some deserve more than others. You can't have that in a free market. You only get that in a utopia or socialism. And with socialism, you better hope whoever is setting that moral compass lines up with your ethics or you might be really screwed. :-)
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wrote:

Precisely. Society works best when each makes such decisions for himself. Freedom is good.
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On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@zzz.com wrote:

And that is exactly what I am saying. I don't want anyone making decisions for me but I think it would be better if we had better education so that we could make better decisions. As it is our economy and government spending is NOT good. If the population put more emphasis on education most everything would be better. Unfortunately our culture puts more value/recognition/hero status on things that are less important than other things. Right now we are in an "ignorance is bliss" scenario.
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On 3/23/2015 9:01 AM, Leon wrote:

Civilization is still evolving. ;-)
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Depends, could be devolving ;->
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On 3/23/2015 12:04 PM, Markem wrote:

Good point.
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wrote:

Well, that's a different argument than "worth". You don't think a baseball player should make $50M. Fine but you're not paying him and the person who is signing the payroll disagrees.

More like "ignorance is useful" scenario.
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On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 9:38:12 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@zzz.com wrote:

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We may not be signing the check for the salary, but in many cases we signed the check for the publicly funded stadium. I wonder what the salaries (and /or ticket prices) would look like if the owners had to pay for their own p lay houses.
Here is a summary of the book Field of Schemes, stolen w/o permission from:
(Amazon.com product link shortened) ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1
"Field of Schemes is a play-by-play account of how the drive for new sports stadiums and arenas drains $2 billion a year from public treasuries for th e sake of private profit. While the millionaires who own sports franchises have seen the value of their assets soar under this scheme, taxpayers, urba n residents, and sports fans have all come out losers, forced to pay both h igher taxes and higher ticket prices for seats that, thanks to the layers o f luxury seating that typify new stadiums, usually offer a worse view of th e action."
True, fans do not have to go to the games...it's their choice to pay the hi gher prices. I spoke with my wallet many years ago and relinquished my seas on tickets to an NFL team when the price got out of hand. I'm not sure that they noticed.
We should also keep in mind the huge tax breaks that the leagues receive. A s many of you know, the NFL is a 501(c)(6) organization (read: non-profit). Not the teams themselves, but the league.
Yes, I know that there are "offsets" to the tax breaks in increased revenue s from all the different businesses that make money when there's a game in town and that successful businesses contribute to the overall well being of an area. Still, I'll bet that the owners (and the leagues) make out better than the public when all the numbers are in.
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On 3/24/2015 8:53 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

And the shame of it all is that the public simply does not know how irresponsible spending is affection their quality of life. The entertainers are better salesmen than our educators...
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On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 06:53:20 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

That's a completely different kettle-o-fish, but note that the politicians that you put in office signed the check in your absence. ...and mine.

I have no problem with that. The teams pay taxes. If the league also paid tax, the teams would be effectively double-taxed.

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