Re: CFV: rec.woodworking.all-ages

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Howdy!
[snip]

set in an otherwise insulting context. Ok, maybe they are passively avoiding...

groups one should place a particular post in. This is directly contrary to the reason for standing up a new big-eight group.
[snip]

"What he said."
yours, Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
snipped-for-privacy@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
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Yes, it will. And then it will sit there, occupying name space until the end of time, collecting nothing but spam posts. It's *very* difficult to get rid of a group once it's created.

Generally accepted as a win, IMO, but (again IMO) that was because it added some variety to the existing fare. The proposed new newsgroup will add nothing. And hence it's useless. Worse than useless, actually, for the reasons I noted previously.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 16:07:38 GMT, patrick conroy

Someone doesn't like the OT chatter so they want to start a new group and that's "ill-advised"? (NOTE: Buzzword used.)

RIGHT! Instead, these guys want to stop it from happening even though they won't be participating. I'm amazed at the answers some of these folks are giving in an attempt to justify their closed-mindedness. I view it as an additional "channel". Why can't they? Feh! Children.

C - Both of the above. The second WB and Fox came online, I went to watch some of the new shows that the other networks didn't have. Occasionally, it made me choose between an existing show and the new one. Usually, though, it was an addition since the crap on the other networks wasn't worth watching anyway.

Grok that.
--
Strong like ox, smart like tractor.
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I fully agree. I've read some serious rationalizations here by a few.
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Bill

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Care to say which points you feel fit that category? I'd still like to hear from the proponents. Where are they?
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Nothing I remember well enough to quote off the top of my head. I'm not going to pluck the spool. I suppose I can understand why some people would be uncomfortable with the proposal, so I'm not going to make a big deal out of it.

They posted a bit to the thread in news.groups, but I haven't seen them post here. I suppose it has something to do with Vito being so sensitive. ;-)
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Bill

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I think that if Vito expects people to support his viewpoint, Vito owes them his presence and some participation, explaining to them why they should support him.
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berlin.de:

Do you think the proposal is doomed to failure?
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No, the proposal may pass. But if Vito's lack of concern in explaining his proposal is any indication, the _group_ is doomed to failure. He doesn't even care enough to come here and talk about why it's a good idea, but we're expected to think he'll be more active after he gets his group?
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berlin.de:

You may have a point, but there is no requirement for him to post anything to the new group if it passes. A "yes" vote usually means "I will read the group", but it does not always mean "I will post to the group". Lurkers are allowed to vote, and they are also allowed to be proponents.
If they stayed with a moderated proposal, that would have been a totally different story.
Also keep in mind that there were two other woodworking/turning groups in the distribution list besides the wreck, and there will probably be voters from those groups too. Who knows what the outcome will be. I've seen some lousy proposals unexpectedly pass.
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 15:06:05 -0700, Larry Jaques

Not just a new group. An IDENTICAL group, save for the name. There's no mechanism to and no explanation as to how the new group would prevent OT chatter. Ill-advised is exactly the right word.

Unfortunately, once the new newsgroup is determined to suck and the traffic withers and dies the mechanism stays forever and irretrievably in place, taking up cyberspace for no good reason.

Why wouldn't you want to prevent that from happening?

Because it's not. It's essentially a mirror of the wreck. What purpose does it serve? What function can it perform but to confuse and then eventually just take up space.

Ah, now we're down to ad hominem attacks. That's your "attempt to justify [your] closed-mindedness." Why not just invoke the feuhrer's name and get it over with?
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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And continues to confuse new people, who will have none of the history as to why the whithered group was created in the first place.
If the proponents had had the balls to stick to their moderated group proposal and address the concerns raised about the abilities and stability of the moderation team and mechanisms I probably would have voted yes.
I told one of the proponents that in an email that never got a reply.
Why are they afraid to confront criticism and address it?
The proposal doesn't deserve a yes vote, IMO, for just those reasons.
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Well, there's a group called soc.genealogy.methods, which is moderated. The moderator (singular) had some availability problems and the group sat idle for a while. One person (and her sock-puppet/s) who had a grudge that goes back years against said moderator decided to make a big deal about it, and went off and created alt.genealogy.methods with the hope of it being a place to have those discussions but without the 'interference of an absentee moderator' or whatever her catch-phrase was.
The group was created (being in alt., it was just a matter of constructing the correct cmsg's), and the group was there. But, there wasn't really a _need_ for it other than the proponent having an opinion that wasn't widely shared by participants in the group. To me, that's pretty similar to the situation we have here.

Well, groups.google.com's archives of the group have it all, but I just checked 12 articles at random, and didn't find _one_ message which wasn't crosspsted to at least two other similar groups.

Look at the posts, though; they're all crossposts to similar groups. So, yes there's traffic, but it's all traffic that is on-topic to _other_ groups. It is, in my opinion, a good example of what happens when you have two (or more) groups with similar enough content that people aren't going to decide which to post to, so they'll post to both. By making it unmoderated, the "no crossposts", "no naughty language or OT posts" and so on is going to be ineffective at best, and possibly inviting trolling.

Maybe someday one of these un-needed divisions will work, but I haven't seen it happen yet. I see "neutral at best" as an end result here, which makes it hard to want to support it. The fact that the proponents have been _so_ absent here discussing what they want to do and what the real reasons are, makes me wonder what they're _really_ up to.
If they want our support, why aren't they here talking about it with us?
Dave Hinz
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(Bill Aten)

You don't understand Larry. Some people feel compelled to impose their standards onto everybody, so now the nine or ten people who were going to congregate in r.w.m. will have no place to go.

If you ever took a walk down the beach at Blacks or Trail 6 San O' you would realize that God hadn't thought that one all the way through.
Cheers, Mike
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Half Step responds:

Yeah. After a certain age, you don't wanna be naked in front of yourself, fer pete's sake.
Charlie Self "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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Thu, Sep 30, 2004, 4:39am (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@netagw.com (BillAten) burbled: FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages <snip of a bunch of stuff, I only read a bit of>
Sounds like more wishful thinking to me. So what if it has a charter? With no moderator, how's a charter supposed to keep out the trolls, and all? That's sort of like saying, "Take the spoon away from Rosie O'Donnel, and she won't be fat." It ain't gonna happen.
I'm not gonna bother to vote. You get your group, fine. You don't get your group, fine. But, if you do, and the trolls find you, and I'm sure they will, don't come back here and bitch about it.
JOAT We will never have great leaders as long as we mistake education for intelligence, ambition for ability, and lack of transgression for integrity. - Unknown
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (J T) wrote in 3152.bay.webtv.net:

Actually, remember when we had the Dizum.com invasion? IIRC, you were a victim of those attacks, JOAT. Dizum said that they were willing to block any newsgroup with a ban on remailers in their charter, but since the wreck has no charter, they wouldn't block us. I noticed that the soft wreck has a clear ban on remailer posts in the proposed charter, so Dizum would probably block that group if it were to be created. Charters also matter to Ebay auctions too. Ebay does act on Usenet charter violations.
I agree that most ISPs will not act on charter violations, but there are a few examples above of entities that will act, and who knows what the future will bring.
For the record, I abstained on the soft wreck vote.
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Bill

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Was it ever established that the message making that claim actually came from Dizum? Around the same time, there was at least one other similar post, purporting to be from Dizum, which was demonstrated to be bogus. It's worth noting that neither their published abuse policy <https://ssl.dizum.com/help/abuse.html nor their mail-to-news gateway page <https://ssl.dizum.com/help/mail2news.html makes any mention of this supposed policy.
In any event, Dizum is only one of a host of anonymous remailers. If a troll finds his access through Dizum to be shut down, so what? He'll just find another group.
And Google might as well be an anonymous remailer. Anybody can open a hotmail or yahoo account, use that ID to sign up with Google, and post any trash he pleases. Google will respond, eventually, to complaints of abuse, but all they do [in fact, all they *can* do] is shut off the Google Groups account involved. They don't/won't/can't prevent the culprit from immediately opening up another Google Groups account using a different email address from hotmail or yahoo.

.. If, in fact, that is actually Dizum's policy, a proposition that is not supported by Dizum's published "standards", such as they are.
But as noted above, Dizum is only one way, of many, by which trolls gain access to newsgroups. Even if Dizum shuts him/them off, that won't keep him/it/them out.
Thus, this argument in favor of the proposed new group holds no water.

Yep, and IMO that alone is sufficient reason to vote NO. What's the problem with occasional posts such as "FA: 3HP 10-inch blurfl" with a link to the eBay auction page?

Some will, I imagine. And the charter of the proposed new group would outlaw *any* postings offering *anything* for sale or trade. That's a very, very bad idea IMO.

And for the record, I voted NO.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in

I was not arguing in favor of the new group. I did not vote "yes". I was pointing out to JOAT that there are some instances where a charter can matter.
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charter can make a *beneficial* difference.
Even granting the somewhat dubious assumption that the charter would cause Dizum to block access through *their* mail-to-news gateway, 1) many other similar gateways exist, and\ 2) it's still wide-open through Google.
And the proposed charter, if enforced, would shut off *all* commercial posts, no matter how limited in frequency, including posts which many of us find to be of benefit.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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