Re: CFV: rec.woodworking.all-ages

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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:39:54 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@netagw.com (Bill Aten) calmly ranted:

A suggestion to the Wreckers:
If you like the idea, vote "Yes."
If you want them out of our hair, vote "Yes".
If you don't care one way or the other, won't go visit, don't agree with their reasons, don't agree with their morals, don't want the limitations, etc, just don't vote. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
But, only if you have some really -compelling- reason they should not be able to start their group, should you vote "No."
Live and let live.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk
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I'll vote for that. If they can have newsgroups such as rec.fart I'm not going to stand in the way of one that may be of value to someone.
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:26:51 -0700, Larry Jaques

So your vote is for confusion and duplication? If this was for anything other than just a rec.woodworking duplicate your point would be valid - but it is to create an *identical* newsgroup! No difference. That benefits nobody. It is a bad idea and needs to be rejected on that basis. If there is someone who wants to create a valid and reasonable proposal (such as the original moderated proposal only with a better moderation team) then *that* would be properly handled the way you describe. Saying "let them do something wrong, bad and injurious in a small way to our online world just to get them out of our hair" is an irresponsible attitude.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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Tim Douglass wrote: [snip]

I agree whole heartedly. Don't cast a "what the heck" vote.     mahalo,     jo4hn
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:57:34 -0700, Tim Douglass

That's my thought, Tim - and I will vote accordingly.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:26:51 -0700, Larry Jaques

Agreed. I don't buy the dilution argument.
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Why don't you go check out alt.genealogy.methods for a good example of a group created by someone who thought they had a better idea? Yes, it's alt rather than rec., but it's the first example I can think of of a group that was very vocally proposed and has since effectively died.
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Sorry, Dave - I'm not following. And I'd prefer to not check out that group instead I'd rather ask others (you) what you think happened.
I like to consider myself bright enough to change my mind if someone "shows me the light".
I see newsgroups as dynamic - people come, people go. If I'm in the Elks Club, I've got no beef about a Moose Lodge opening up across the street.
How can something as inexhaustible as "participation in an internet newsgroup" become diluted by another newsgroup? More power to them - if it's any good, I'll join. If it's better, I'll switch.
And yes - there's some self-centered hypocrisy at work, on my part. I didn't give a toot about Howard Stern until I had children myself.
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No, but you might beef about somebody trying to open up another Elks Club right across the street. IMO that's a bit closer analogy.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
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On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:46:14 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Hmmm. Good one. I'll have to "ruminate" on that one... :)
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IMO the problem with the proposal is that it's simply a duplication of the namespace with no mechanism to enforce the proposed "all-ages" part of the proposal.
If they had stayed with the moderated proposal and found a group of moderators that could be trusted I would have voted yes. As it stands, the proposal makes no sense.
djb
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On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:08:05 GMT, patrick conroy

How about one with a sign, "Christian Moose Lodge, for better people that those sewer-dwelling mad dog Elks" ?
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On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:06:28 +0100, Andy Dingley

Would that be the alcohol-free Elks? <G>
Barry
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On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:06:28 +0100, Andy Dingley

And under that a sign: "Everyone welcome to come in and hang out, even those sewer-dwelling mad dog Elks across the street - and they are welcome to talk and act here just as they do there".
Rec.woodworking.all-ages is *IDENTICAL* to the existing newsgroup. There is *NO* difference other than the name. It is an ill-advised attempt to create a moderated newsgroup without a moderator and because it is badly planned and badly implemented it needs to be rejected until such time as someone presents a proposal that is well thought out and planned in such a way that it will meet the goals of the proponents and be acceptable to the usenet community as well.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 18:10:02 -0700, Tim Douglass

Appreciate the food-for-thought. Which is *why* I like this place.
But, why just not let the market decide? If the new newsgroup sucks, it will wither and die, right?
Did "Fox" dilute NBC, ABC, CBS? Or was is generally accepted as a win for the TV viewing public(*)?
(*) NB: There's NOT much on Fox, that I'll watch. There's not much on TV that I'll watch, but I think that's beside my (attempted) point.
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No, it will just whither. There's virtually no acceptable mechanism for removing a newsgroup once it's been created, so the appropriate time to do that is in the voting process.
The point of the RFD anc CFV process is for the proponent(s) of the new group to lobby for support and build a consensus that the new group is needed and will add something of value to usenet on its creation.
The proponents of this CFV have done the opposite, and now appear to be actively avoiding any discussion.
As a result, creating the new group is unlikely to add any value.
I was seriously considering voting in favor of the mooderated proposal, had the proponents put together a viable moderation team. They failed to do so, and then pulled the moderation from their proposal. At that point, the new group simply became an attempted duplication of the existing wreck under a new name. No redeeming features whatsoever.
That's why I voted no.
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 10:49:07 -0600, Dave Balderstone

Because the "market" will cause dozens of crossposts a day, and both groups will have to be gone through to follow a single thread of interest.

Right. There are a lot of newsgroups that should be called dried.up.hunks.of.spam instead of the name they give.

Agreed. The only way I'd vote yes for it is if it had a moderator.

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"In general, crossposting is not encouraged. If you feel the need to crosspost between rec.woodworking.all-ages and another newsgroup, please only do it if the post is on-topic to all groups in the crosspost. Please limit crossposts to a maximum of two or three groups, and set follow-ups to a single group if you must crosspost. Posts should never be crossposted between rec.woodworking.all-ages and rec.woodworking under any circumstances."
--
Bill

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So what happens if someone does? They get sent to the principal's office?
Talk about toothless paper. There's only one sensible vote: NO.
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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Yes, and it's unmoderated. There's no way to enforce it, just like there's no way to enforce the "no bad language" rules.
I find it interseting that the examples they gave of "bad language" in the Wreck were mostly a result of our troll infestation. I can't help but think that the trolls might be _attracted to_ their unmoderated nicy-nice group rather than honor their request to stay away. The people who cause trouble like that look for easy targets, and respect isn't something they have.
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