Re: angled finger joint? for beehive

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On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:17:37 +0100, Adam Chapman wrote (in article

I'm Xposting this to rec.woodworking for you 'cos there's some clever blokes on there who might be able to come at this from a different direction and sort you out properly
Meanwhile
I just took a look at the drawings on http://www.beesource.com/files/10frwbci.pdf
As it stands there's NO way to cut the joints with a router because the cuts would be parallelogram shaped. The cuts would have to be cut parallel with each other but at an angle relative to the board edge
You _can_ do it by hand (well, I couldn't) or you can have one of the pairs of sides square to the other a and running "normally square" - as in like a standard box joint - on the square-cornered sides.
Check out
http://www.stots.com/tm.htm
review http://www.woodshopdemos.com/prd-stot.htm
This guy sells a jig for you to make your own dovetail/box jigs of any size and custom built for any particular weird project you have on hand, so if you're willing to lose the leaning-in on two of the walls, you could joint it fairly easily - even dovetail it - with this gizmo which is around 40 usd
He has some nice examples of angled dovetails. Watch the on-site video for a step by step account.
I've probably overlooked something obvious, so I'm throwing this one out to the floor for sage counsel.
Enjoy!
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On 6/20/2009 4:59 AM Bored Borg spake thus:

My first take on this is that it might be impossible to do with a router. (At least impossible to make joints that don't have gaps in the corners.)
What occurs to me is to make the cuts on a table saw, with the blade tilted and with a wedge underneath the piece to make the compound angle. Then finish cutting the joints with a chisel (chopping out the waste).
This is for a box joint: I wouldn't even want to speculate about making angled dovetails. Possible, but a headache.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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Bored Borg wrote:

If I had only a few supers to build, I'd make the first pairs of cuts on the bandsaw, then chop the material between pairs of cuts with a chisel.
If I had any quantity to build, I'd cut 'em on the cnc router using a 1/16" bit...
...but if I had a choice, I'd make nice, simple box-joint supers on the table saw. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Am I missing something here? Wouldn't he cut four identical isosceles trapezoid shapes and then cut the box joints on the opposite angled ends? Each end is straight and 90 square, so box joints should be a breeze. My math is most certainly out of date, but if there's a problem with this, it bewilders me as to what it is. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Isosceles_trapezoid
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Upscale wrote:

I think you might be (missing something) - or it might be that cutting the box joints and top/bottom of the trapezoid not perpendicular to the board face would be easier for you to set on your table saw than for me on mine.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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How about using a standard super and cover it with clapboard siding and mitered corners? Art (I can't post to the alt groups (handicapped by Verizon) so maybe someone could post this over there?)
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"Bored Borg" wrote:

A few years ago, Norm built some serving trays with angled corners and dovetails.
Can't remember all the details, but NYW would have the video.
Lew
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wrote:

Waste of time to even cut box joints when rabbetted boxes are sufficiently strong with modern glues and nails an in my collection of hive furniture appear less prone to rot.
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On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:17:37 +0100, Adam Chapman wrote

See if you can pick up an April 2009 Issue #182 of the Woodsmith magazine. They have a "weekend project" on how to make a "Box-Jointed Silverware Tray" that gives instruction on how to cut the angled box joints using a table saw starting on page 16.
http://www.woodsmith.com/issues/182 /
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
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Nova wrote:

That does look like a much easier joint to make.
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Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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On 6/20/2009 4:59 AM Bored Borg spake thus:

One question: why, exactly, do the boxes have to have angled sides like that? Is it a functional part of the design, or just an esthetic one?
(Haven't checked out the documentation referred to, I'll admit, 'cos I don't like downloading huge PDFs just for curiosity's sake.)
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I suppose its just to look nice. I know the outer case has an air gap from the inner cases containing the bees, to keep the hive warmer in the winter. Im thinking it would be faster, easier to do something like a biscuit joint. It'd also give me a better chance of leaving a nice finish, as there would be no end grain showing. I'm making it from pine since its cheap. A lot of people use cedar because of its lighter weight but i don't intend to carry mine anywhere.
Thanks for all the replies everyone, I appreciate it a lot
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On 6/22/2009 3:14 AM Adam Chapman spake thus:

So if the angling doesn't have any function, just make standard rectangular boxes. Don't try to use biscuits--they're not made for things like this exposed to the elements; the boxes will eventually fall apart. Just use the traditional finger joint--it's been proven down through the ages.
[note post trimming]
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If you want to avoid biscuits, then you can use splines (I tend to find them faster and more acurate than buscuits anyway). In any case, I would suggest Cedar instead of pine, as pine is not very weather resistant. The only way I can think of to do the joints in the diagram using power tools would be on a tablesaw with a specially shaped dado blade.
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Somebody wrote:

I suspect for ventilation.
All those bees in the hive generate a lot of heat.
Lew
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On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:14:13 -0700 (PDT), Adam Chapman

I suspect cedar is used for its natural weather resistance.

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The question is, how well to Bees tolerate the smell and characteristics of cedar? You should investigate that very closely before building what may become just an unused box.
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I wouldn't use aromatic cedar, but the "green" cedar I made a fence out of in a previous house wasn't any more "smelly" than pine. Carpenter bees sure love the cedar rafter ends in my current house. :- (
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Upscale wrote:

Traditionally hives are made of pine, painted white, are simply a square box with finger joints. There is no "inner box", the inside is filled with removable frames.
I think you could use any kind of joint you want, a simple butt joint nailed would work fine I think, the bees glue everything together anyway:-). A finger joint or dovetail joint is the joint I would use, or I would use biscuits if I had them (I don't).
As for cedar wood, it is not necessary and I wouldn't use it unless I knew the bees liked it, (my guess is they don't care) and does it flavor the honey (my guess is it does)
Also, bees provide their own heating and air conditioning.
--
Jack
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I have seen several different cedar trees with feral bee colonies in them. Cedar wood and odors do not seem to be a problem for the bees. Photon
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