raid on Gibson Guitar

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"Father Haskell" wrote in message
When banjo players get nasty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ-NhyctOho

=== Too funny!
I thought that looked like Michael Landon for a bit.
--
Eric


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See? them banjos'll kill you daid!
Then there's this (I can't look):

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query
ϊstest+Guitar+Alive&aq=f
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On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote:

The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it will sustain the sound.
Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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Sharper attack, longer wear.
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Father Haskell wrote:

It is worth mentioning that the amount of attention given to cutting the wood (of a given species) counts for quite a lot too . IMO, That's the feature that most markedly affects the price of a new instument. Of course, a luthier's reputation for making excellent instruments may allow the seller to charge another grand or two. Go to Elderly Instruments for more details.
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This link provided by Just Windering:
http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/about-guitar-acoustics-101.html
says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a guitar; the back, sides, fretboard, &tc. do not.
Interesting luthier.
-Zz
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Zz Yzx wrote:

That's a convenient point of view to have if you are trying to sell them.
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On 8/26/2011 7:21 PM, Zz Yzx wrote:

To be accurate, I provided this link: http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/gallery_past_mesquite.html I only wanted to show a gitar with a mesquite fretboard, which I thought was cool. It may be well that the type of wood used to make the soundboard has a greater effect on a guitar's tone than the type of wood used to make any other part of the guitar. However, I don't personally agree as a general statement that only the soundboard affects how a guitar sounds. If that was true, a $150 mass-produced guitar could be made to sound as good as a $10,000 custom one, just by manufacturing it with a properly designed soundboard. (We're talking about acoustic guitars; solid body electrics don't have soundboards.) A bridge padded with soft rubber would obviously muffle the sound, which shows that the engineering of the bridge affects a guitar's sound. The dimensions of the body affect the sound, as does the placement and rigidity of the internal bracing. The shape of the frets definitely affects the sound quality; a fret flattened by wear muddies the sound. I could go on, but these examples make the point.
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wrote:

It's a good thing our gov't is punishing only the worst of the lawbreakers, isn't it?
Muckin' Faroons.
Ayup, I believe we can prune about 75% of the agencies off the roles of the gov't and still be able (BETTER able) to protect our shores and (BETTER) feed, house, and educate our citizens. Cut the FAT!
-- Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens. -- Jimi Hendrix
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basilisk wrote:

I saw another report claiming it was not the WOOD, per se, but the fact that the wood was not "finished" by union workers in India.
The feds are not saying - yet - just what their beef is, whether it's the wood itself or something else. The problem could be lack of the proper paperwork in the importation process. We don't know yet.
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"HeyBub" wrote in message

Please document that whether or not wood workers in India belong to a union has anything to do with this matter. At least you didn't repeat the claim being made on the right-wing of the blogoshpere that the real reason Gibson was raided is because the company's CEO gave $3,500 to Republican candidates in the last election.

In this case that is apparently the basis of the action, that Indian law requires this wood to be finished there and not exported raw. Allegedly (as the popular saying goes) Gibson's paperwork was somewhat less than accurate, i.e. describing raw wood as finished pieces to get around the law. In a previous case the feds apparently tracked a shipment of allegedly illegally harvested wood from Madagascar through an intermediary to Gibson and that case is the subject of a lawsuit working its way through the courts.
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basilisk wrote:

It's even worse:
"[WASHINGTON] Today's uncovering of secret multi-agency program for shipping illegal Gibson guitars to Mexican drug cartels left red-faced officials of the U.S. Department of Justice scrambling for an explanation amid angry calls for a Congressional investigation...
"Responding to a Freedom of Information Act request, Justice Department officials admitted that the guitars were part of a complicated sting program know as "Operation Fast and Fretless," ostensibly designed to stem traffic of illegal guitars and amplifiers between the U.S. and Mexico. The multi-agency program - involving Justice, ICE, TSA, EPA, IRS, FDA, Fish & Wildlife, USDA, and the Bureau of Whiskey, Groupies & Hotel Rooms - reportedly encourage border area pawn shops to sell the guitars to known drug kingpins."
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html
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On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote:

To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.
IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".
Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality)
IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs.
IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.
How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces?
Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be?
What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.
And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".
Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.
Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem.
That is what this is about!!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
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I guess we will all just buy Fender guitars, from now on, where they are more honest and not smugglers.
---------------- "Swingman" wrote in message
To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm.
IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32".
Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality)
IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs.
IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS.
How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces?
Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be?
What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs.
And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality".
Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid.
Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem.
That is what this is about!!
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Except Fender has been harassing small-time builders of cigar box guitars, since cigar box guitars are square, and Fender, which owns Gretsch, who built Bo Diddley's signature instruments, owns the patent on square guitars.
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Technically, Bo's guitars were rectangular. According to some sources he built the first one, so "prior use" should invalidate any Gretsch patent claim, as would the famous "log" built by Les Paul. Leo Fender also seems to have built a "square" prototype.
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I would think any "square guitar" patent would have long ago expired.
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On 9/2/2011 9:12 AM, m II wrote:

Or you could buy a Martin. They use the same damned wood but contribute to the democratic party, so armed hatchet men aren't sent to in force Indian law.
--
Jack
Got Change: The Individual =======> The Collective!
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That absolutely sucks.

Most.
Especially when Gibson probably didn't WANT the thicker stock because it would have to be sanded/planed down, anyway.

Uh, oh!

Suckage. It's nasty actions like these, by American bureaucrats, which make the climate for offshoring a whole lot more tenable. Fukkemall.
-- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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On 9/2/2011 8:00 AM, Swingman wrote:

I think the answer depends on their intent. If there was an intent to "defraud", then they should be held accountable. Morality has nothing to do with it (if you believe in law).

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