Question on staining oak

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Dick Snyder wrote:

No. You had said...
"I bought some Benwood filler (it was one I saw in Bob Flexnors book) and mixed in 25% stain as mentioned on the can which was the max dilution. I did some test pieces - solid oak and oak plywood. The good news is that the stained grain isn't nearly as dark as when I applied it directly onto sanded oak with no wood filler. The bad news (for me anyway), is that the stained wood is more blonde than the cabinets I hope to match. Applying more stain won't help because the pores are filled."
...and asked for suggestions to remedy your problem. I posted a way to add *more* stain to the too light wood without affecting - or minimally affecting - the color already in the pores.
What you are proposing now is a different thing; however, what I said may work OK as the shellac would act as a conditioner in the pores. Best I can suggest is to try it and see.

It's OK by me but as someone else said be sure it is dewaxed. And as someone else also said, mixing in some very fine (FFFF) pumice and rubbing the slurry in will fill much faster than trying to use shellac alone; basically, you would be making your own uncolored filler using pumice rather than silex.
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dadiOH
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dadiOH wrote:

I just looked up the specs for the wood filler you used. It uses alkyd resin - as in varnish - as a binder. In reference to your original post, you should be able to add more stain to your too light areas after the filler/stain is completely dry (24 hours) without materially affecting the color in the filled pores as the pores are sealed by the varnish. That assumes the pores are totally filled so that additional stain doesn't catch in them. IOW, the shellac solution shouldn't be necessary.
Starting with raw wood, you could also stain it as dark as you like, let it dry then mix a lighter color stain into a filler that will absorb the stain; filling with that should both fill and lighten the too dark color from the original stain. AFAIK, neither pumice nor silex - both are silica - would absorb stain...whiting (powdered limestone) would...very fine wood dust would...wheat flour would but I've never heard of it being used.
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OK, I think I've got it. Sorry to be so dense. I will try two experiments and choose the best result.
1. Adding more stain after filling the wood with the filler/stain mix. 2. Filling the wood with the filler/stain mix followed by the dewaxed shellac, sanding, and restaining.
I'll report back my results in case anyone is interested who has followed this thread.
Thanks for clarifying your posts for me.
Dick
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My old DeWalt palm sander and its orbital sibling used to make great small batches of filler for me. I'd just use their dust collector port with a piece of muslin taped around it as a bag and then go crazy sanding down a piece of scrap from the project I was making. When I had enough sanding dust (yes, I also did this with the belt sander as well), I'd untape my little bag and dump the sanding dust into a small dish.
The project would have already been stained, and I'd dump in enough tung oil to the sanding dust to make a spreadable slurry, adding OIL stain to the slurry to match. I'd then spread the slurry around on the project to fill pores or gaps, then scrape it off using a scraper, piece of glass or even an old blade from my planer or joiner. When bone dry, a light sanding would give me a much smoother surface and I could then proceed with finishing.
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Dick Snyder wrote:

Keep in mind that the binder in your filler is varnish. That varnish is also going to seal the whole piece of wood so - after the filler is *totally* dry - you may have to sand lightly before the rest of the wood will accept an appreciable amount of stain.

That is essentially the same as #1, just a coat of shellac on top of the varnish from the filler. I suggested the shellac originally because I didn't know what was in your filler.

I'll look forward to hearing.

NP
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dadiOH
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and choose the best result.
1. Adding more stain after filling the wood with the filler/stain mix. 2. Filling the wood with the filler/stain mix followed by the dewaxed shellac, sanding, and restaining.
I get your point about not needing to try experiment 2 given the alkyd resin in the grain filler but since I am learning a lot with this thread, I will take the time to do it anyway. I'll report back my results in case anyone is interested who has followed this thread. In principal, the results should look quite similar.
Thanks for clarifying your posts for me.
Dick
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dadiOH wrote:

Pumice and shellac *does* make a great filler - until you try to sand it smooth. Since pumice too is an abrasive, the stuff is murder on sandpaper.
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Steve Turner wrote:

To level the finish after applying the "FFFF" pumice I use more pumice along with a felt block:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page !84
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Steve Turner wrote:

(This may be a repeat message as the last post I made didn't seem to show up)
After filling the grain with "FFFF" pumice if I have to level the finish I use more pumice rubbing out with a felt block:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page !84
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Steve Turner wrote:

Shouldn't be too bad, pumice is just non-crystalline quartz - glass, essentially - and aluminum oxide is way harder.
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dadiOH wrote:

You'd think; but believe me, I've been there, done that. Tried garnet, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide (wet-or-dry), all that stuff. It all dulls *way* faster than it would if the pumice were not present. It's hell on a cabinet scraper too. :-)
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This might be a tad too strange for some folk, but for small projects that needed just a touch of color, I did a lot with magic markers and acetone.
For instance, I built a box with a sliding lid to make a presentation case for a 1-1/2 ounce bottle of Tanguray as a gift. The whole thing would fit in your hand and was made of oak. What I wanted was a reddish color to go with the green bottle inside. The quick solution was do put about 3 tbsp of acetone into a dish and break apart a red magic marker. I placed the dye saturated core into the acetone, which turned into the nicest and most controllable red dye you could imagine. 4-5 coats of the dye got me the color I wanted and didn't raise any grain, either. I then finished off with a few coats of tung oil and called it done.
FWIW, by using different magic markers, you can control the color by using different ones, such as red and black or brown.
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Filling the pores to decrease absorbtion works to keep the tone down as you indicated. Applying more stain should not be a problem as long as you let it set longer before wiping the excess. I have double coated stain to many closed pore woods to get a darker result.
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On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:58:08 -0500, the infamous "Leon"

I'm still wondering why nobody has asked Dick why he wants to use an open-pored, grainy wood if he wants a perfectly smooth surface. Nobody has suggested fuming, either. <sigh>
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experiments I chose to put untinted Benwood grain filler (made by Ben Moore) on the vanity I was making for NH. I should mention that it is a warm brown in color which was in the direction I was heading with the final Golden Oak stain. In retrospect I would have put in 25% stain (the max allowed with Benwood) to just thin it out. It is thick and very difficult to rub off with the recommended burlap in small spaces. The stain would have thinned it more making it easier to apply and rub off. After the grain filler had dried for 20 hours or so I spent another 3-4 hours with more burlap rubbing off some built up grain filler that I missed in my initial rubbing. This wasn't on the end of the vanity which was a somewhat large flat surface but on the face frame in the front and especially on the raised panel cathedral style doors. The project looks great now but my supply of elbow grease is running low!
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Dick Snyder wrote:

One can thin it. With naptha.
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dadiOH
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kind of thinner?
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Dick Snyder wrote: ...

Don't know why he recommended naptha, specifically. It'll undoubtedly work but I note Ben himself says cleans up w/ mineral spirits which are less volatile.
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Dick Snyder wrote:

That and the fact that the instructions generally say to use it to thin to a "heavy cream" consistency. Naptha assumes an oil base filler.
Procedure...
1. Thin with whatever to desired consistency
2. Slosh on a smallish area ("smallish" varies by person, gotta define it yourself)
3. Move around (L<>R, up<>down, both diagonals) with rag, brush, etc....like grouting tile.
4. When it starts to set up (lose gloss), remove excess with burlap, old towel, plastic scraper, etc. OK to add a little solvent to the burlap/towel but very little...goal is to keep filler in grain, remove elsewhere.
5. After drying, repeat above as necessary to totally fill grain
6. After it is dry, sand entire surface lightly to remove any residual filler from areas other than pores.
7. Clean, apply your stain <ugh> if any then top coat of choice (after any stain <ugh again> is dry).
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wrote:

Just be damned careful. Naptha ~= gasoline.
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