Question fow wood shop teachers

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This, of course, is a result of our increasingly urbanized society. We're just not exposed to the broad range of skills that were so necessary to our forebears. Used to be that farmers were, in addition to their green thumbs and animal husbandry skills, experienced at woodworking, metal working, welding, plumbing, carpentry...you name it...and their kids learned these things at very young ages. It was a matter of survival.
City dwellers, however, don't have to worry about things like that. They just call a craftsman...who grossly overcharges for typically shoddy work.
Suburban living is also a contributor to the loss of craftsmanship. In many communities, the CCRs would prohibit a homeowner from pulling a table saw into the middle of his driveway and make sawdust. And with 2-hour commutes in each direction to and from work, who has time for that anyway?
But I digress. I used to be an instructor in a private technical school. That was 30 years ago and it was hard enough then to maintain order among students who were paying to be there...not like today's macho teen aged punks who are constantly posturing, challenging authority and disrupting classes. There is no way I'd take a job as a high school teacher in this day and age...especially one in which the potential for serious injury is so great.
(snip)

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Take a shot.
You will learn much more than you will teach.
That seems to be a rule of thumb for those of us who try and pass on the knowledge.
Besides, if the interest is so low, you will most likely be instructing in the basics rather than the advanced stuff.
Good basics are more important to newbies anyway.
Just my humble opinion of course.
Best of luck.
--
Jim

On Valor's side the odds of combat lie.
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I think that most wood workers have the general knowledge, but it takes a special skill to teach..
You have that skill, and a general knowledge of wood working, right?
I'm sure the state and county have guide lines and such, and maybe required class structure..
IMHO, if you can teach a few kids shop safety and basic wood skills, and to appreciate wood, you've accomplished quite a bit.. and along the way, you might create a few sawdust addicts like us..
also, as we all know, the best way to learn is to teach..
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Glen wrote:

This is kind of interesting. I'm not a teacher, and have been driving a truck for most of the years since I majored in foreign languages, but I've always had it in the back of my mind that one day I might decide to go back to school for a bit and get trained up to teach high school. (The politics of it have kept me away. I don't know any happy teachers in these parts. Plus I was originally on a PhD track, and didn't take any teacher training, so I'm not certified.)
Unsurprisingly, I have always thought in terms of teaching language classes. Then just a bit ago a friend of mine told me the local school system is desperate for a shop teacher, and I should put in for it. It's an intriguing notion. I could probably just about get the job based on this friend's recommendation, but I'm not at all sure I have the right stuff to do the job.
I'm self-taught. I've never had a class from any store or school. Could I teach shop? What do they even teach in shop class? I'm reading this thread with keen interest.
(Although, everything else aside, I probably can't afford to take the pay cut anyway. Entry level teachers don't make Jack. Sad, isn't it?)
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I have no idea what entry level teacher get, but with some time in and the right degrees, 50k to 60k is about normal. I know of one pulling 64k this year. This is in CT where the cost of living factors in.
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Edwin Pawlowski responds:

Starting pay in Silvan's area is probably in the high 20s. He can look forward to something around 45 to 50 as a high, after nearly 30 years, and a 30 year retirement for most systems. There are always coaching chores and similar extra duties--drama teacher?--that add some extra bucks to the paycheck.
I don't know what he makes as a truck driver, but even over-the-road guys have to really stretch themselves to last 30+ years, and top pay seems to be about 40+ cents per mile (how many miles did you drive today Daddy? No thanks. Those things look like about as much fun to push 500+ miles per day as a vat of wet cement). No idea what the trucker's benefits are, either.
Charlie Self "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
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On 11 Dec 2004 21:04:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Free access to a fully equipped shop can add serious extra bucks to a check.
He can purchase some good personal hand tools, and do his machining after school.
Barry
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Barry writes:

I'm honestly not sure how the school's insurance company would react to such use.
Charlie Self "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
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On 11 Dec 2004 22:49:10 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Every shop teacher I've ever met used the shop for personal projects. The same goes for teachers using weight rooms, pools, ice, athletic fields, kilns, music rooms, etc... I skate and shoot pucks on a regular basis on a high school rink with a neighbor.
I'm talking about working alone, not bringing hired help in. Lots of teachers are in school long after school ends, for various reasons.
Barry
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Charlie Self wrote:

If you don't get hurt, you don't have to tell them about it. :)
There might not be that much temptation anyway. I haven't seen the shops in the newest schools, but I have a friend with the keys to everything in the county, and I've poked around in many of the wood shops at various points, for various reasons.
It's stuff Keith would drool over at first glance, and then it would make him cry to see the sad shape it's in.
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Silvan wrote:

Nothing in the shop is older than 14 years (the school opened in 1991). The TS is Powermatic, one of the scrollsaws is a Hegner the others are Deltas, as are almost all of the other machines.
As to pay, I would not go down, except that I would lose my dep't chair supplement, bringing me to about $75g (teaching 5 periods a day). The current teacher teaches an extra period per day bringing him up to about $90g. Glen

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I'm honestly not sure how "fully stocked" a high school shop class is these days. :)
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Charlie Self wrote:

Or less. My wife's cousin got out of school the same time I did, give or take a couple of years. She's making 60 now, but she's moved all over the state to get there. She's up in NoVA somewhere now teaching "special" (ie especially homicidal) students.

Top pay is 60 cents a mile for the union guys, or it used to be. The company that used to advertise that folded a few years ago. Regular non-union OTR guys do hover around 40 as the top, and maybe 3,000 miles a week, I guess. I'm not part of that whole scene.
I earn in the low 30s, exact figure not for worldwide archival. I haven't had a raise since 1999. It doesn't go as far as it used to, and my takehome has dwindled by over $100 a week in that time due to inflating insurance costs. They used to pay 100% of my insurance, but then they decided to cap what they would pay at whatever they were paying last year (the year before making this change), and I've had to eat the difference every year since. They also used to just pay people anyway (salary) when they got hurt, but one asshole abused that, so they started making us carry disability insurance, and turning us over to that if we get hurt and have to sit out. (Although I have never actually had to use it.) They used to pay for our meals too, until some asshole started eating at Red Lobster three times a day.
I get my annual pay cut the first of December, right in time for Christmas. I like the job, relatively speaking, but I don't know how much longer I can continue to take an effective 7% pay cut every year. I have seen what happens to those who ask for raises though, so there's no point in going there. I still make more than people at Wal-Mart. Barely. I could always go somewhere else.
I don't really want to though. It either involves more time on the road, or more hours a week working, or both. I sometimes only work 35 hours a week, and almost never more than 50, and the pay is the same week after week. If I took a local job with one of the big name freight humper outfits I'd have to pull 70 week after week, go back to punching a timeclock. If I went with a more conventional outfit, I'd have to put in the miles to earn the money, and slow times would come right out of my paycheck. I hate working. I like leisure. What I have now is a good compromise. Work my ass off as fast and efficiently as I can, and I earn more time at the house. I am VERY efficient. Who knew laziness could be such a good motivator? :)
I'm getting really tired of it all around though. The new hours of service rules are a serious pain in the ass. I lose money every year. Most of all, I got lucky the first few years, and had easy winters. The winters lately have not been so easy. Even running exclusively in the south for the last couple of years, I've still found myself descending into hell more times than I care to dwell on.
I HATE WINTER! Driving one of these damn things in bad weather is sheer insanity. It used to be my biggest concern was whether I could get across town to work. Now that's just the beginning of the ordeal. Winter is the primary reason why I want to quit doing this shit. Get out before I use up all my luck. Winter scares the bajeezus out of me. It didn't used to. I've survived some scary shit, and I have a lot of T-shirts. Too many T-shirts. I would give my left nut to go back to driving something that only has four wheels, is only 6" off the ground, and doesn't bend in the middle.
Problem is I can't figure out how to replace the income, and I sure can't afford to take a massive pay cut, so I'm really stuck between a rock and a hard place here. About all I could do is take two full-time jobs, and then be assured of pulling 16 hours EVERY day.
This shop teacher thing is worth a look, but I probably can't afford to take the pay cut. <sigh>

Most people driving for real companies have excellent benefits. Medical, dental, vision care, the whole nine yards. Mine have gotten worse year after year. I only have medical. If I want to cover the family on my insurance, it's $150 a week, so my wife has to cover herself and the kids. She has some of the worst medical insurance in the country too, working for Wal-Mart. Both her insurance and mine are jacking up the premiums every year, and jacking up the deductible too. $200, $500, $750, $1000, $1000 per person. Eventually it will be pointless to have medical insurance at all. It just about already is. By the time we meet the deductible, it's time for it to roll over.
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Silvan notes:

Check the pay. Blacksburg may surprise us both. You seem to be in a spot where a job choice is soon to be inevitable. To offer unasked for advice, consider ALL the costs involved. Most VA teaching jobs require you to pay part of your health insurance, but it amounts, I think, to about $250 monthly and will cover the whole family. Depends on the deductible, as you know, in part. Remember that about 8-9 weeks of the mid-year is available to knock together projects to sell the rest of the year, too. That MIGHT replace some of the income. Hell, maybe you could drive a truck in the summer!
Teaching has its hazards and stresses. It has its rewards. Pay is rising, though not as rapidly as it needs to if we're going to replace a half-competent corps of teachers with a full group of good teachers (aznd keep them).
If you're not (both you and your wife) paying out as much for insurance, you're not eating on the road daily, you're not subject to the dangers of icy weather (when schools are closed), whenyou no longer face the stresses of driving an articulated box on wheels, think about how much more you might enjoy life.
See what the salary is, what the steps are, how seriously they're going to be on your ass to get a master's, or 30 hours beyond, etc.
Then decide. I wish you luck.
Charlie Self "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
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Prometheus wrote:

My thing was windchimes. I tried to compete with $5 Chinese crap that looked like crap and sounded like crap. People wanted to pay for quality alright, and they wanted my stuff. They were willing to pay three times what the Chinese stuff cost, and give me $15. For something that had $20 worth of materials in it.
I gave my production away and learned my lesson about making sure a market really exists before tooling up to make something. Also known as making something just because it's really cool and you can do it does not make it a practical undertaking.
On the woodworking front, I see a lot of the same kind of thing. At the venues where my wife sells her stuff, I see people walking around with lots of $5 pukey ducks, and the people with good stuff, like the hand made drums, say, putting lots of good stuff back into the trailer at the end of the day. Shows aren't the only venue for such things, I'll grant you, but still, it's indicative of the market. Pukey ducks sell. If you don't find pukey ducks a rewarding direction, then it's really hard to find a market. Not impossible, but very difficult.
Like these chess boxes I'm working on now. I've only made one so far, but I can see this as a saleable item. I can see it selling at a good venue for maybe $150 on a good day. But I have $150 worth of wood, hardware, and commercially produced chess pieces in this thing, and I spent every bit of a hundred hours making it, so I need to retail it for about ten times that to make it worthwhile as a commercial undertaking.
Which is why I just don't worry about trying to make this a commercial undertaking. I'll find some other way to earn my daily bread.

Yes, and on Charlie's other thread that started such hostility, at least one of the numbnuts I went to school with (numbtits maybe? she was a wimminz) spoke Spanish about as elegantly as Peggy Hill, and she's teaching now. The only people in my department who were worth a damn at all were me and a handful of native speaking foreign exchange students from various places taking gravy credits. I was the only American-born student in either the Spanish or French department who could speak either language with any semblance of fluidity at all.
Notice I did not say "fluency." I'm still not fluent after eight years of formal Spanish and seven years of formal French. I get by. I make fun of myself for being a gringo a lot to cover up my flubs, and I ask people to speak slooooooooowly, so I can figure out what they're saying. I'm not fluent, and I was the best by a gigantic margin. I guess, yes, one reason I have never gone too far toward the idea of teaching this stuff is my realization of just how much further I need to go to truly own either of these languages. I'm pretty well convinced that only native speakers should teach foreign languages, and I would be best at teaching English to Spanish or French speakers.

Well, we'll see. I have a number of steps to take before this even becomes more than a flight of fancy, but there's real potential here. I think I might have the right stuff. When we were working at the old Middle School shop to put together our float for the Christmas parade, I made everybody find and put on safety glasses. Even the guy who is the connection I'm talking about exploiting toward this job. :)
It would be hard to replace the old shop teacher as a constant reminder to safety though. I never had any shop classes, but I still knew of the guy. We all did. He only had seven fingers.
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Silvan writes:

I've always loved Yurpeans who twit Americans for not knowing another language, when 99% of the French and SPanish types I've met cannot be understood about 92% of the time. The only truly fluent non-native English speakers I've ever heard have been Dutch and Italian. Figure that one out.
As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may have, may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far for a daily drive.
Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill
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ESL is fine for some, but ridiculous for the young and otherwise illiterate. It has, however, the endorsement of the education profession, as does "bilingual education," which takes an illiterate and wastes his time teaching him "frog" in both English and the other language.
The best programs for learning a language are immersion-type, where the participant doesn't go to the crapper unless he learns how to say it in the proper language. Sort of like sending a kid to school where people speak only English....
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| |> |> As far as teaching English to native Spanish speakers, that's another |> broadening area: ESL, or English as a Second Languge. I think there may|have, |> may still be, a Bedford opening in that field, though it's a tad far for a |> daily drive.| | |ESL is fine for some, but ridiculous for the young and otherwise illiterate. |It has, however, the endorsement of the education profession, as does |"bilingual education," which takes an illiterate and wastes his time |teaching him "frog" in both English and the other language. | |The best programs for learning a language are immersion-type, where the |participant doesn't go to the crapper unless he learns how to say it in the |proper language. Sort of like sending a kid to school where people speak |only English....
My former wife's late uncle (Robert Berrellez, DAGS) before his retirement from the CI---sorry---ITT, was living in Buenos Aires when he befriended an orphan who was caddying at a golf course.
Bob moved to Miami and brought the high-school-aged kid with him. When they arrived in the states, the kid knew zero English. Bob, of Mexican descent and raised in a Spanish speaking family in a border town, had gone from a newspaper delivery boy to AP Latin American reporter and detested bilingual education. He put the kid right into high school and a year later, the kid and I were having phone conversations about electronics projects.
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George wrote:

If I may correct you on a few points. Bilingual education was the way to go, or so thought the majority of educators, but it is no longer as popular among educators as it was. In fact, it is nolonger practiced (legally) in public schools in California. There are still, however some old timers who continue this model.
ESL is an old term, relpaced by ELD (English Language Development), in California at least. The purpose is to teach Englingh to those who do not speak English. There are two prongs to an ELD program. One is direct language instruction which is similar to what a Spanish class to non-Spanish speaking kids. The other is "shelterd instruction." In this area the same subject matter is taught, whether it be science, math, etc, as in the regular classroom, but the teachers have additional training in how to increase meaning into their lessons.
I could go into much more detail on this matter, but I am pretty far OT as it is.
I am not trying to attack you, George, I just wanted to give a bit more insight into what I do for a living (but hope to change as soon as I find out all the credentialling requirements).
Glen
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Wowsy gosh. I guess California _is_ the entire world, eh? We folks back east still call the programs by the names I used, though whatever the name, it will not improve them. It also doesn't matter what you call yourself to get a new "certification" and sinecure. Motion is _not_ necessarily progress. Folks out in California are so successful with their language programs that they have to print the ballot in _how_ many languages, even though only citizens are supposed to vote? Of course, I have to wonder how many are actually able read it, even then.
I have been in immersion to learn a language and immersion to teach, as well as conventional classes, and you're barking up the wrong, expensive tree (OBWW). The way to learn it is to live it - period. Teaching someone functionally illiterate in both languages to read/write in either is a waste of time. The education establishment disregards both common sense and the experience of millions of immigrants - including my father, who knew not a word of English when the truant officer dragged him off to school - and tries to sell us new names for failed ideas so they can keep their jobs.
I'm not attacking you, I'm merely suggesting that study, rather than preaching, might be a better way toward understanding.

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