Question about rust

Page 2 of 3  
Doug Miller wrote:

This is what was not clear. We're not making something from nothing.
--
Ed
snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

to burn 1 pound of propane, takes _5_ pounds of Oxygen in the air.
From which, you get approximately 2-1/4 pounds of water, and 2-3/4 pounds of carbon-dioxide.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"OOPS", says I. :)

That's actually 1-3/8 pounds of propane. not one pound. I was using the wrong weight for propane.

Correction: 3-1/8 lbs of carbon-dioxide.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robert Bonomi wrote:
Thanks, that makes sense. It is not "created", but more air is drawn in and the moisture is a higher concentration.
--
Ed
snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
A dehumidifier will add MORE heat than a electric resistance heater with the same power consumption.
It's obvious that all watts consumed by the dehumidifier will stay in the garage as heat. What is not so obvious is that when water vapor condenses into a liquid it gives up heat (just the opposite of what happens when it evaporates). There is also the heat pump effect of removing heat energy from the cold condensate if it is piped down a drain.
Art

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yawp. *lots* of heat.
Approximately 970 BTUs _per_pound_ of water condensed. That's enough heat to raise the temperature of 10 lbs of water by nearly 100 F.
Or, 8,200 BTUs per gallon of condensate.
For the metric crowd, 540 calories per gram. Enough to raise 10 grams of water by 54 C.

The effect of this is _trivial_ in comparison to the condensation.
If the water is at 20F below 'room temperature', that's a whopping TWENTY BTUs per pound of water that goes down the drain. About 1/5 of 1% of the energy released by condensation. Hardly worth mentioning. :)

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote in message wrote:

Good point. THat means you can throw a tarp over yout heavy iron and put a dehumidifier underneath it and things should stay warm and dry.
--

FF

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robert Bonomi wrote

The metric crowd uses joules, not calories (1 cal = 4.184 J). See the official SI website: http://www1.bipm.org/en/si/derived_units/2-2-2.html
The heat energy in metric terms is 2,260 J/kg (also 2,260 J/L). The energy from condensing a cupful would illuminate a lightbulb for 9 seconds.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mike in Mystic notes:

You might want to try a small dehumidifier, running it for a few hours during heating and after...then shut it down and empty it until the next time.
Charlie Self "Character is much easier kept than recovered." Thomas Paine
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The propane burner requires about 10 cuft air for each 1000 btu generated. Each 10 cuft of air burned generates about 1.6 cuft of water vapor. That's a LOT of water.
To prevent moisture buildup in the room you must get rid of the water generated by providing an easy exit for it; the exhaust gases from the burner should go out a stack & not directly into the room.
Also try spraying a thin coating of a non-wetting agent like a silicone onto the cold cast iron surfaces. That will slow down the condensation of the water.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
dave martin wrote:

How much water is in the water vapor? I'm not doubing the statistics, but you are saying that 10 cu. ft of air reduces to 16% of vapor by volume. What else is included here in the 1.6 cubic feet? That means that the original atmosphere contain 16 percent vapor, but that must be reduced to a given amount of liquid. How do we calculate the liquid content?
--
Ed
snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The answer to your last question is "absolute humidity". the math gets somewhat messy. Google for a write-up. :)
Air consists partly of oxygen. the oxygen is the only part that is involved in combustion.
The amount of oxygen in 10 cu. ft. of air will combine with a 'fuel' to "make" about 1.6 cu. ft. of water vapor.
If you want to go through the actual numbers -- You start with the percentage of 'air' that is oxygen. the oxygen molecule ("O2") has a molecular weight of 32 (roughly). thus 22.4 liters of O2 will weight 32 grams.
Propane (C3H8, molecular weight 32) provides the hydrogen.
1 C3H8 + 5 O2 => 3 CO2 + 4 H20 +
CO2 weighs in at 40, and H20 at 18
In gaseous form (at standard temperature and pressure), 22.4 liters of -anything- weighs, in grams, what the molecular weight of an individual molecule is.
Have fun with the math. <grin>
One lb of propane, when burned, generates about 2-1/4 lbs of water. or about 35 fl. oz.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

OOPS! propane is actually molecular weight 44

With the above-mentioned correction, that's 1-3/8 lbs of propane.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Even a 4 watt bulb will heat the iron to a slightly higher temperature than the garage itself. It doesn't matter if the temperature is 80 or minus 10. All you want is a slightly higher temperature on the rust-prone area to chase away the moisture.

I fI had a garage shop, I'd spend the money on lots of insulation and caulking. I know its tough to seal a garage door, but it can be done.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mike in Mystic wrote:

You already know about thick castings and increased humidity and stuff. Now think about a fan. I've had a cheap box fan running 24/7 in my shop, moving the air around, since last fall. High humidity, low humidity, high temperatures (up to 120 F inside the shop) and low (down somewhere below 10) I haven't had anything rust except for stuff that's been kept out of the moving airstream.
Granted, I don't have any big iron in my shop, but I'm still impressed with the efficacy of this inexpensive prophylactic. I used to have to wax *everything* frequently. Every chisel, every screwdriver, every saw blade... Rust was a severe problem.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
A classmate of mine told me that soaking small rusted items (drill, mortising bits) in coca cola for about 2 weeks will break the rust free. I haven't tried it yet. I did acquire about $1,500 worth of tools for $200 last summer from a former workmate who was liquidating his father's old tools. Many of the small drill bits and metal parts of the larger tools had rust. We tried navel jelly with no success. Some parts are too small use steel wool. any suggestions?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Wilson wrote:

Sure, try the Coke on the small parts. It is acid and will break down the rust.
Wood magazine just had an article about rust removal and prevention. Worth a peek. -- Ed snipped-for-privacy@snet.net http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The active component in Coca Cola, or any other "cola" flavor for that matter, is _phosphoric_acid_. The operative word is "acid" -- it =will'eat things'.

Navel jelly is *bad*news*(tm) for tools/tooling.
For iron parts, electrolysis is the best method. it _restores_ the iron surface.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Silvan" wrote in message

Now
A fan might not be the sole solution in every climate, but it can be a big part of the solution in many. It's just too simple, and cheap, a solution for most folks to take seriously ... until they try it.
Other than the occasional coat of Topcote, a fan running 24/7 is the only rust prevention solution I need. I've been in this particular shop, in a high humidity, rapid change in temperature climate, for over two years. Fan, mounted high on one wall and blowing across shop, runs 24/7, NO rust on any tool surface whatsoever.
Just cleaned rust off the tools, for the third time, in a shop for a lady friend who no longer has a husband. She has the shop and tools rented out, but the lessee has yet to take possession. The shop is less than two miles from mine (and drier overall because mine gets water in around the edges when it rains heavily), and her cast iron surfaces rust constantly ... difference between her shop and mine: NO fan.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/23/04
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mike,.
I was having the same problem - to the point where I would clean and wax them and a few days later it would warm up and rust would form.
It happened one day and I noticed I corner of hardbard was over the TS - I moved it and there was no rust under it - the rest of the TS top had rust all over it. So I tried a little experiment - I cleaned both my jointer and TS - I took a peice of HB cut it to the lenght of one of the jointer beds. About a week later - it got down to about 25 then warmed to about 60 the next day. Again - the TS and jointer were showing signs of rust (despite the wax i did the otherday) - I moved the HB and it was still sparking clean. Now I have 3 peices of HB - 1 to fit onthe TS and 2 for the jointer. All marked - DO NOT USE OR THROW AWAY.
Been using this for about 2 months now w/ great success. I just have to remember that when im done for the day - to put them back on!
Good luck
-Rob

have
in
are
21.5
wasn't
it
paste
the
every
of
I
the
be
experienced
the
the
when
into
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.