Question about joinery

[Alexander Galkin]

As my woodworking skills improve I slowly move into cabinetmaking. Cabinetmaking involves a lot of joinery. I am trying to realize what joinery method is best an when. As far as I understand there are pocket hole joinery, mortise-and-tenon, dowel and biscuit. To me dowel and biscuit seem to be the easiest and quickest. I understand that smallest biscuits are 2" wide so they cannot be used to join narrow stock. Do these two methods have drawbacks and which situations when they are not good choice. I already have PC Biscuit Joiner and feel pretty comfortable using it. I do not have doweling jig but it is not expensive so I can buy it if necessary. Any advise would be appreciated.

[Todd Fatheree]

First of all, I wouldn't include biscuits as a type of joinery. They help with alignment, but don't really add strength, which is what joinery is all about. From what I read, dowels can be a real challenge when the alignment is not right on (ok, so what isn't). Pocket holes have their place, but personally, I wouldn't use them on "fine" furniture (but in my mind, they're a dream when building face frames). To add to your list, I'm taking a woodworking class right now and the main guy there really likes the use of splines. You really can't go wrong with the old standby, the mortise and tenon. Many people who hang around here seem to be happy with a loose tenon system as well. As you hint at, every joinery method has its place.

todd

[TeamCasa]

For cabinet making, all have a place. Many like the pocket hole screws for face frames. Dowels have been used for this for years and is quite simple. Biscuits work well for many type of joints but work very well for joining panels. I'm a fan of dowels for face frames only because I've been doing it so long. Maybe I'll switch to a pocket hole screw system... maybe.

Dave

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[Rick Samuel]

[Tim Rohrer]

I have not bought this yet but it is where I intend to start: "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery" by Gary Rogowski. I have it on my Amazon wish list if anyone wants to buy it for me :)

Wr, Tim

[Bobnospam1]

I didn't feel it compared with Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking books 1&2. Might give it a look for content/details.

[Mike G]

With the PC biscuit jointer you also have the option of using face frame biscuits which are 1/2" wide by 1 1/4 inches long to the large #20 1" wide by 2 1/4" long. With that range you can easily put a whole cabinet together using nothing but biscuits. They'll do everything from face frames, to face frame mounting, to installing shelves, to aligning boards to glue up panels.

What you have to remember is that glue area has a lot to do with joint strength. Three #20's spaced across the width of a shelf will give you plenty of strength for a normal kitchen cabinet shelf but I wouldn't want to trust three face frame sized biscuits for the same job.. If you suspect a shelf will need to take a more then normal load or just want to play it save you can stack 6 biscuits and you'll be able to stand on the thing..

[charlie b]

Di Cristoforo's (sp?) book on joinery probably has every joint you can think of and many you'd probably never think of. The illustrations are exellent.

Tage Frid's WW 1 & 2 did have a joint I'd not seen anywhere else - a tapered slip joint - the taper being towards the outside face of the joint. Used when veneering spans joints with grain running 90 degrees to each other.

Tage Frid's books shows not only the various joining methods, but also the sequence of cuts - very handy to know what the joint looks like AND how to cut it.

Both books use line drawings to illustrate the joints. Today colored photographs seem to have replaced line drawings - and often don't illustrate what you really need to see as well as a good line drawing can. The emphasis seems to be on the "sizzle" and not the "steak".

The really handy thing about traditional joinery is that you can dry fit parts - and in some cases, the entire piece BEFORE committing to glue or screws. The 7 drawers in my drill press cabinet work well and still haven't been glued together after two years of use.

charlie b

[Hylourgos]

FWW, FWW (how's that for use of acronyms?) April 2001, #148 determined that biscuit joints were among the strongest of all types of joinery (the were *the* strongest in FWW's stress tests).

H

[Todd Fatheree]

Well, I'm mostly going by what has been posted here. It would be interesting to see the methodology of their tests. As with pocket holes, I'd leave them out of really nice stuff. It's hard to imagine them adding a lot of strength to, say, a table top, since they wouldn't be adding that much surface area. For something like a face frame, it just seems easier to use a pocket hole. Ah, well...to each his own. If it works for you (that's the communal "you"), go with it.

todd

[Mike G]

For a glued up panel, whether you use biscuits, tongue and groove, splines, dowel's,or nothing but glue, the subject of strength is immaterial since a properly jointed, glued, and clamped panel is already as strong as the species of wood will allow.

Using a glued up panel as a basis for saying that biscuits shouldn't be considered as a type of joinery not to mention it not adding much surface or strength to a panel (IE table top) is a pure case of ignorance is bliss and I'd have to opine that if think you are going by what you see posted here you probably should get some reading glasses before some other newbie thinks you know what you are talking about..

.

[charlie b]

As I recall the FWW test was as shown below.

[Todd Fatheree]

If you'd like, I can point you to many discussions on the rec regarding the use of biscuits and their impact on joint strength. Better yet, DAGS in the rec archives and you can find them for yourself. Personally, I don't use a lot of pressed wood in my construction, so I don't find it an issue. It's interesting that you feel the need to belittle me rather than just state your opinion with facts to support it, like charlie did. I'll admit that after going back and reading through some of the archives that there is more of a mix of opinion on the rec regarding biscuits and their strength-adding properties than I recollected. Happy, now, Mike?

todd

[Mike G]

Thrilled

As for belittling, you managed that yourself.with the your statements which I prefaced my post with.

I just have a problem not pointing out when someone is blowing smoke up the groups ass and making like they knew what they were talking about. Possibly even having actual experience on the subject they were pontification about.

Some poor slob may take your bad advice as some sort of fact.

YOU wouldn't include biscuits as a type of joinery? GMAFB.

You want to play the game don't go whiney when your hand gets called.

[Todd Fatheree]

Way to ignore my main point, which was that there have been plenty of other posts here that supported what I said. I didn't just make it up. There have been posts on both sides. You don't agree, fine. You want to look like a big man by trying to put me down, feel free if that's what you're into. I've said that I was repeating what I believed the preponderance of posts on the subject to be. I've since said that upon further review, the posts on the subject are more mixed. I'd also say pontification is a pretty strong word. In my original post, I wrote two whole sentences on it. I guess you used it as hyperbole to try to make your point appear stronger. Beyond that, I didn't give any advice, just my opinion. Advice would be me saying "don't use biscuits", which I didn't say. After reading some more on it today, I conclude that biscuits are, in fact, a type of joinery. What seems to still be up for debate is whether they're a very good one. I've read posts on both sides. Contrary to your belief, your opinion is not of universal authority. .

todd

[Jeffo]

FWW, take a look here:

a report on the "TESTING OF PLATE (BISCUIT) JOINERY AND ADHESIVES FOR APPLICABILITY IN CONSTRUCTING ARCHITECTURAL PRODUCTS"

Jeffo

[J. Clarke]

For God's sake, they're like every _other_ form of joinery, good when used appropriately, bad when used inappropriately.

[Renata]

Todd Mayhaps you oughta hang around here a bit more and get to know who's who before casting your aspersions.

Renata

-snip-

-snip-

[Todd Fatheree]

I see. Just what aspersions was I casting, hmmm? Did you actually pay any attention to this thread? One person felt the need to be unnecessarily harsh in his reply to my post. Another simply pointed out a difference of opinion backed up with facts and (oh no) a discussion took place. I found out that my recollection of what had been posted here was not 100% correct, though plenty of people had posted previously with the information that I passed on. After going back and reading some more, I decided that I was incorrect. Personally, I don't think that excuses the conduct of others, but you might disagree.

Todd