I have progressrd to the point that the night stands carcases are assembled. I am putting in drawers on full extension soft close slides and they will be inset. I added a couple of rails between the drawers on each cabinet front and back. The rails have two functions. Number one function is to close the gap between the drawers and the secondary function during assembly is to properly and quickly provide an index for the slides and the slide spacers to sit on.
The process of spacing the rails.
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The back fit of the back drawer rails.
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And the first use of screws on the project. You see one at the end of each rail screwed into the back or front face frame.
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And here you see my set up for attaching the top cross bracing that will help support the heavy marble tops. This set up insured that the supports remained even at the top of the cabinet and evenly spaced.
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Here you will notice the slide spacers sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. The spacers insure that the slides are flush with the inside edge of the face frame stiles. They will be screwed in place into the side's front, back, and center stiles. I used the actual plywood for those spacers to determine where to cut the grooves in the FF stiles. The distance between the groove to receive the cabinet sides and the inside of the FF stile need to exactly match the spacer.
Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions and or comments. I spent a lot of time with your photo's and work, and rereading your comments, gathering insight and your experience showing in your work.
I noticed about how important it was to use a block of wood when clamping to protect the final product.
I noticed the narrowness of the rail plus the joint to the FF plus the use of a screw. Did you also glue the rail joint? and are you using under the drawer or bottom slides? I see in the following pictures an interior rail as if side bottom edge slides were to be used.
Either way, that side support which runs to the back rail looks like a very nice adaption that allows Euro drawer slide construction without the complicated hassle I have seen in other carcasses. It looks like in any event you made it all to be in perfect alignment without the use of jigs like are shown at Rocklers.
Just in case it is missed in my question above, did you also glue the rails?
In this picture I noticed a few things. It looks like you used a screw to hold the support runners for the marble tops, while clamping it all together, this locking it all in place and perfectly aligned with the top of the FF. I have a question here. I can see the inherent strength of the runners if it is also glued, but my local stone guy suggested to me when I installed new bathroom cabinets to use a layer of 3/4" good plywood, leveled, to install their slab of stone for the bathroom. Is there any inherent advantage to either?
This one caught by eye and made me think of the entire framework.
When you said the grooves were cut in the stiles to match and I correct in assuming that you did not do this per plan, but by actually measuring the thickness of the plywood and let that be the determining factor for the cutting of the grooves?
I also took the liberty of magnifying the photo,...
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to look at the grooves and noticed on the bottom sides there were none. That only the rails had grooves. Is this because it is for nightstands and they do not have the loads that Kitchen Cabinets do, or are you going to put in support blocks there later on?
Nice work, and I noticed that the inside edges of the FF were stained ahead of time. Is there a particular reason?
Thank you again for any of your comments, and for all of your pictures, allowing us to see your craftsmanship, and Karl's as well.
Well yes, it is important to protect the wood surface from hard surfaced clamps. However if you are referencing the above picture link the piece of wood you see is an exact length spacer for spacing the drawer divider rails. There is one on each side and I started at the bottom. AAMOF the spacer also fits perfectly between the top drawer divider rail and the FF top rail, exactly 7.25" I typically use either Bessey Revo K-Body clamps or Cabinetmaster clamps. Both brands do not mar the wood so no caul/cushion is needed. I also have a few Jet K-body style clamps that I still need to adapt, they unfortunately will leave an impression with out a cushion.
I did not glue the divider rail to the FF stiles, just the one screw on each end. I am using GSlide full extension soft close slides. They are side mount and require 1" total allowance, the drawer must be 1" narrower than the opening.
Yes, that was all part of the plan. ;~) The drawer divider rails normally only fill a gap. I also use them, during assembly, to provide a solid index location to mount the slide spacers and slides. I mount the slides to the spacers on my work surface and then attach that assembly in place sitting on top of the drawer divider rails. That approach is much easier than mounting the slides after the divider rails are mounted.
Here is a view of the slides and spacers after installation. Again, just screws and no glue. Once the slides and spacers are mounted with screws into the side's front, back, and middle stiles the weight is no longer supported by the drawer divider rails. The drawer divider rails now just fill a gap.
Notice also the bottom rail/spacer assembly. I placed blue 1/4" shims under the spacer so that the slide would clear the 1/4" lip on the FF at the bottom. After attaching I removed the spacers.
I could have simply mounted the bottom slide 1/4" from the bottom of the spacer and let the spacer index off of the bottom of the cabinet. But then I would have had to change my technique when mounting the slides to the spacers.
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Nope, just the one screw. The screw only has to hold the spacer in place, there is no load. Additionally on the back side I will put a few screws, while attaching the 1/4" plywood back, into the back drawer spacer rails also. I can actually pick the cabinets up by lifting at the drawer divider rails so there is not issue with strength in that respect.
Gluing would probably not hurt at all however the supports will not be carrying all of the weight. The marble slabs over hang the front and back FF top rails. and on one cabinet the slabs will also overhang the cabinet sides. The slabs are approximately 24" square. I'm working with odd and different sized "left over" pieces of marble. That is what the customer wanted... so I improvised.
I think on kitchen and bathroom cabinets it is a good idea to lay a piece of plywood under the stone slab. Installers never know exactly what they will run into. Typically cabinets are made out of 5/8" thick melamine panels. With the exception of the front face frames the carcass is made up of particle board covered with a thin paper like veneer. That material hardly supports its own weight much less a large hunk of heavy stone. The plywood on top of the cabinet helps to distribute the weight to the entire cabinet and also supports the stone when the inevitable happens, some climbs up on top of the counter to change a light bulb. In my case the marble is much smaller and therefore much less likely to break because of lack of support.
That is correct. The plan however did call for that measurement to be
3/4" between the FF opening and the groove in the stile to receive the side panels. This is where you deviate from the from the plan drawing to compensate for unpredictable plywood thickness. I placed the sample piece of plywood between the dado set and the fence to set the fence distance.
In that picture the cabinet was a dry fit. The sides bottom rail grooves were not complete to meet the grooves on the FF bottom rails. The bottom panels eventually had a continuous groove/dado for the bottom panel to fit in to.
The front and back FF's were complete and therefore the groove/dado was complete.
All groves are cut before I assemble the side panels and or FF's. This results in the stiles of each not having a short horizontal dado at the bottom of the stiles to match the grooves in the bottom rails.
Is that what you were wondering?
Anyway I was presented with the knowledge to develop a simple jig that allows me to complete the groove/dado accurately and quickly using a short top bearing flush trim bit in my trim router.
Thank you..
Staining. I don't love it but I tolerate it if I can make it simple. Inside corners are always a bear. Typically you have to glob a bunch of stain into the corners to cover the wood and typically you do not get it all out and the corners end up being darker. By prestaining/varnishing certain parts this situation is avoided. and that actually speeds the staining process.
I try to prestain when ever there are going to be inside corners with the exception of face frames where the rails and stiles meet. Those inside corners are typically not as difficult to get to and are normally hidden by a drawer or door. Staining is much easier when you are only working with a single flat surface.
Notice in this picture that I masked off the rails and stiles, where they meet, for the side panels. I also prestained the panels.
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Thank you for taking the time to look, and so closely!
Merci'! Leon, That tip is worth its weight in gold, and if sent to a mag for a tip I am sure it would win top prize for the month. I was contemplating how I would do some of the drawers I was going to build, and you solved every problem I can think of, including but not limited to saving all the trying to fit in the cabinets to mount the slides and align them, and then drill the holes and install the screws. Especially for older guys. It boggle's the mind, at least mine and done right the 1/16" alignment should be a no brainer as well.
That's an amazing, even if simple, solution. How many people would slap themselves up side the head thinking "why didn't I think of that?"
Thanks, Leon. I think it can revolutionize the industry look at the brackets it does away with. Well....enough emoting, but that is really cool!
Hmm, never gave it a thought about climbing on the countertop, but I can see my wife doing it when I am not looking. Now she is light, but I sure can see where the damage can come in.
^^^^^^^^
The paragraph above ^^^ was what I was wondering, and you answered my question here.
Yes, I did notice that as well as saw the tape. :)
Thanks again, Leon. Really, got a lot more than I was expecting on this one.
I suspect that idea has been used before although I don't recall reading about it anywhere. I did submit a tip several years ago to WoodSmith and got a $50 check. It was really simple but helpful for precisely relocating a rip fence in the event you had to move it during a batch cutting session. This is particularity helpful when cutting dado's and the scale on the fence is not on a specific mark.
Revolutionary???? ;~0
And one other thing. The prefab cabinets are notorious for not being assembled well, specifically where the FF top stiles meet with the sides. There is often a difference in the height where they come together. I try hard to insure that the tops of the front, back, and sides share the same plane. If the FF is taller than the sides the stone top will simply rest on the FF and the back edge of the cabinet. Plywood will to the same but will add support to the stone.
When I cut sides and or their stiles and the stiles for the front and back FF's I do that all at the same time to insure all are exactly the same length. The fly in the ointment is insuring that the top rails are even with the tops of the stiles. While on paper that sounds simple enough when you are gluing and clamping that can often not work out as wanted. I have a method to insure that the top rails, and bottom rails, are precisely aligned with the ends of the stiles.
I used to run all assemblies through the TS to true up the tops and bottoms but that was extra steps and the pieces ended up be slightly undersized.
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You are welcome. It is nice that the details are noticed. This method of assembly, front and back face frames, has worked out well for me. I started using this method when I build our kitchen pantry cabinets 4 years ago. These night stands are the 38th and 40th pieces that have that method of assembly. About 16 pieces are in our newish home, the rest have been sold to my customers. You learn a few short cuts and tricks when building this many pieces this way. I was able to figure out the solutions to the difficult processes using Sketchup.
Well, to me there seems an appreciable amount of installation time saved, and being as the rails were just screwed they and the slide rails could be adjusted up or down easily if the customer changed their minds, or the wife in my case? It, if thought out before, as you did, would eliminate most of the alignment time and frustrations for the homeowner wood worker. It eliminates having to have rear brackets and their problems. Plus, when you put them in to sit and then you don't have to worry about clamps,etc. Just screw then down tight. When there are double sets of drawers just install a Stile in a groove like a "T" for both front and back and a whole section of plywood as a separator is not needed.
In any event I will be making use of it with gratitude.
I have been using a corner clamps like these
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Mainly from getting caught up in the Kreg craze, then seeing everything knocked out of alignment when you drilled in the screws. I had a couple work around's but these guaranteed square cabinets for me. Or anything that needed to be square.
I was thinking something like this might be handy,...
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Instead of using a stick temporarily screwed to the top of an end panel, and possibly splitting the wood on the end panels.
When I get to that point I will probably use my corner clamps when gluing up. However, when I get to that point, I'll have a much clearer picture. Since the Groove/dados from the FF to the end panels must match perfectly I would think.
I'm still beating my head against the wall with Sketchup v 16, seems way more stable then previous versions, But I have as yet to find a way to take two or more components and stick them together, as in snap to with auto sketch. I wish I had a scaled graph paper layout layer to draw on with snap to on those lines as well.
OK. You really did look close and forward. LOL. I guess I have been building so many cabinets this way that it has become second nature to do it this way. AND YES, the drawer divider rails can be easily moved or removed so that the cabinet can have more or less drawers in the future and or simply replaced with door. This method even works for simply no drawers or doors, for book shelves. Although with doors or no doors you do have to pay more attention to the finishing of the insides. I only put one coat of varnish on the inside when there are strictly drawers.
This is what I was talking about concerning the rails outer edges matching up perfectly with the stile ends.
The small clamps securely hold a long strait edge, that piece of oak, on the outer edge of the top and bottom walnut rails. That straight edge is also long enough to extend past the ends of the stiles. Then when you add the long clamps top to bottom, It brings the rails even with the ends of the stiles with out pushing them in to far past the ends of the stiles.
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Ok, when you hover over a component line end or mid point a small inference box appears. Left Click, hold and drag that spot while in the "move" mode to the same small inference box on the other component line. The inference point on the other component will appear as you get close to it. They should snap together, release your left click button.
If you want to attach at a different spot on the component simply move by dragging in the direction that you want to go and type in the distance and enter. You can use the "tape measure tool" to set up snap to locations/intersections also. Where the measure tool dashed line goes across a line becomes an inference snap to point.
Also if you want to snap specific distances go into Menu Window, Model Info, click on Units in the left column, and enable length snapping and or angle snapping. You can also set your precision there.
Just keep at it, you will eventually learn the the program is perfect for wood workers.
I would try to learn the basics on simple drawings until you understand how this all works in Sketchup.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Also if you would like I could send you a Sketchup drawing of the night stands to play around with.
Yes if I misunderstood, the issue with making the components stick together "After" placement together, select both or all that you want to relocate, right click, and select Make Group or Make Component.
I would draw two components and then try to "hook them together", Like a cabinet side and bottom shelf. but I could never get them to align up. Edge to edge.
Or a cabinet end with a dado and a shelf with a tongue, it was a lost cause getting them together.
I found a video that showed some of the commands which I think might resolve it, but I haven't tried it yet.
Which also brings up a sore point with me, RANT,...
I hate the guys that steal videos made by others, give them no credit and provide no links where the author of the video says things like go to me web site and download free molding designs to use in your drawings. Especially when people in their notes/replies ask about them and the person who grouped all the helpful videos from different sources just ignores the questions. If it were up to me I would take away their computers and give them solitary confinement for five years and make them watch intriguing movies with all the ends snipped off. /Rant off.
Once again, when you have more than one or two drawers to do, and you're using a drawer slide/spacer assembly to attach them to your cabinet sides, a jig is your friend.
Easily made from scraps as needed, and which can be immediately customized with simple custom spacers (cut for different slide and face frame parameters), it will also allow you to reference the drawer slide the proper distance for any face frame thickness and/or distance from cabinet front edge ... as well as giving you some nailing/screwing space below the slide which comes in handy when tweaking/shimming in existing cabinetry.
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(scroll right for all four photos)
When you have many drawers to install, this "trim carpenters" jig to do the drawer slide/spacer assembly will save tons of time.
You know me, I'm generally one to make my own jigs. But Rockler has a couple drawer slide mounting jigs that are pretty darn cool. I may get the big blue one next time it's one sale.
If the offer is still open, Yes, I would love to see what you did. I finally started getting my drawings to link up, so that the shelves fit into the dado's and so on. In some ways it is easier than Auto Cad, and more productive from what I have seen with the training vids.
Is your email addy a workable one. If so I can send you my email address. I'd love to see what is done by someone at your skill level.
Since you appear to be interested in retrofitting new drawers into existing cabinetry, just a couple of things to be aware of that can often makes that retrofitting an existing cabinetry job with new drawers and modern ball bearing slides a bit easier:
Using the jig referenced in a post above for the practice of per-mounting slides to a "spacer" for installation:
Referencing the bottom of a drawer slide to the bottom of the "spacer" is fine when you are doing custom furniture. IOW, when the cabinet sides are more likely to be perfectly flat, parallel and with no irregularities.
However, in the real world of retrofitting existing cabinetry with modern drawer slides, cabinet sides are rarely flat and/or parallel to each other.
Having a space both above and below the drawer slide to nail/screw the slide/spacer assembly to the cabinet sides will help with a stable installation in a real world installation by making it easier to tweak slide/spacer assembly up or down, front to back and side-to-side (parallel) to each other.
(Keep in mind the goal is not necessarily a "level" drawer installation, but one that is perpendicular to the front edge of your cabinet or face frame.
IOW, you want your drawer front(s) to close flush with the face frame on all sides; or in the Euro and/or inset installation, flush with the front edge of the cabinetry).
Initially, I usually mount both slide/spacer assemblies (made with jig) by shooting two brads/finish nails into each drawer slide spacer, one at the front top, and one at the back bottom of the spacer.
(make sure your brads nails don't go completely through the cabinet sides!)
I then slide the drawer in and check for fit, remove the drawer carefully and tap the assemblies with a dead blow hammer and/or shim as necessary to get the desired fit ... the idea is that the brads/nails hold the assemblies in place, but allow some movement, until you can do the final fastening.
This method can often help in solving one of the most common problems when installing modern drawer slides in existing cabinetry:
The fact that the opposing cabinet sides in old installations are rarely parallel. This can result in a binding/less than smooth operation of the slides.
If done with the correct finish nail or brad, the act of pushing (sometimes with force) the drawer in initially in a non-parallel situation, will often cause one or both of the spacers to move slightly away from a cabinet side and into a parallel relationship. When you carefully remove the drawer the first time, you can shim any of those obvious spots with all guess work as to spacer dimensions removed.
When tweaking and shimming is finished, and the drawer fits to your satisfaction, screw/nail down permanently.
All the above notwithstanding, some older cabinet are so poorly built and/or out of square that another solution may take a lot less time.
In that case I often take the time to do this:
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Doing this in the shop, where you can insure perfect drawer slide operation both before and after installation (the entire fixed assembly then shimmed as needed upon installation) is occasionally the only way to insure first class operation of many of the fancier drawer slides available today when installing in existing cabinetry.
Again, the above really comes into play when dealing with old cabinet installations, and are usually not necessary when dealing with new, custom made cabinets by an experienced cabinet/furniture make like Leon.
That $tyle of jig i$ $imply too $pecific purpo$e for real life u$e, IMO.
If you get my drift. ;)
I will confess to having tried that style of Rockler's "ultimate drawer slide" jigs a few times.
Have always gone back to the old, time tested, "trim carpenter" method of attaching the drawer slide to a spacer (using the jig above), then that assembly to the cabinet, as above.
Much more flexible for my way of working, and for unusual situations, but as usual YMMV ...
In a few words, existing cabinets being renovated are a totally different ball game. You don't always have the luxury to reach in from the top or back or put the cabinet up on a work bench. Jigs solve countless problems.
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