Pozi-cross screws, I hate them

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snipped-for-privacy@rogers.com wrote:

With a name like that, were you assembling DAF's? ;-)
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no I'm a skilled tradesman millwright, and worked for Ford Motor co.
Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo
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No, Oddly I have not. However for many years I was on the the receiving end of of customers complaining about their new cars and that was only if my service advisors could not reassure him or her that all of these models make that noise, or fit that way, or not blow out that vent, or..... Its a small wonder why Detroit is loosing ground.
No dirrect fault of yours of course and it was not a Ford product.
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The Leon entity posted thusly:

In a maintenance log...
Complaint: #3 engine leaking oil Resolution: Small leak normal on this type of engine
next flight...
Complaint: engines 1, 2, and 4 missing oil leak.
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ROTFL...... After wiping the tears out of my eyes, that kinda scares me. ;~)
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Leon wrote:

Japaneese car and the wife owns a Ford. Both have had issues and are at about the same mileage. JD Powers ranks the durability of GM and Ford within Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (IIRC They are about 5 points difference)
The service difference is:
1) I take my car in for an issue and it's fixed. Or if they can't find the problem, they say "we can't find it, but we tried this - if it doesn't work, let us know". I had one No Problem Found with this car. Next time I brought it in, it was "We'll replace xxx as a precaution".
2) She takes her car in (with me making the appointment and letting them know exactly how to duplicate the problem), it's NO PROBLEM FOUND. Well, that's nice, but I don't take time out of our days to call you guys up, make an appointment, miss some work and be inconvenienced if there's nothing wrong with my car. At least do something to try to fix it. Don't just tell me that there's nothing you can do. You can replace something, adjust something, or take a guess. If nothing else, it makes us feel better that, yes, it's a tough issue, but you are doing something about it.
Case in point - her car has a pretty regular issue on hot starts - most of the time you really have to crank it to get it to start. And then it stumbles before it catches. I know it's a tough one, but their answer is: No codes from the computer, and we couldn't duplicate. Well, you mean to tell me there's nothing else to check (fuel pressure/pump, coils, temperature sensors, MAF, MAS Sensors, battery, starter, etc.)? Something's not working properly and it's your JOB to fix it and know what to check, not to dismiss our concerns as "we can't find it".
It's not just me - the wife's fed up - her next car Will NOT Be another American. I don't blame her - mine probably won't either.
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Addressing the JD Powers reports, keep in mind that no one likes to admit that they have bought a car that is a problem and often small problems are overlooked to maintain the feeling that his purchase was a good one. He probably had 3 to 6 years left to pay for the car. Additionally many like to validate their purchase by answering a questionnaire with answers that may be a bit biased in favor of the automobile that he chose to purchase. Few people like to admit that they again passed up buying the 30 years running dependability of a Japanese vehicle to get the more flashy Detroit model. Additional brand loyal American car buyers are seeing improvements in their vehicles and feel that the American automakers deserve extra credit on the survey.
What is apparent to the customer as being poor service is but not necessarily all of the dealers fault. Let me explain some of the reasons below each of your numbered comments below. I know things have changed but most likely not that much since I was in the automotive business. I was the Service sales manager and a Parts Department manager for a large Oldsmobile dealer and a GM for an AC/Delco whole distributor that only sold to GM dealers in the Houston and SE Texas area in the late 70's through 1995.

When I worked for the Oldsmobile dealer in the mid 80's we had a Toyota dealership 1/4 mile away and both facilities were relocations from the down town area of Houston. Our dealership on average replaced parts under warranty about 40 times a day. We held on to these parts for the Olds service rep to review, approve or disapprove and scrap. The Toyota dealer had about 2 parts per day. The bulk of his business was Customer Pay. Our biggest single customer was Oldsmobile. Our Customer Pay to warranty repair ratio was about 60/40 respectively. It was not unusual to write up 100 customers before noon on a Monday morning and we had a weeks worth of work by Wednesday noon. This is a little known fact but the factory does not reimburse a dealer for every warranty repair and the dealer foots the warranty repair bill until the factory issues credit. Toyota and other better Japanese auto builders simply don't have the number of defects as the Oldsmobile's did. Oldsmobile was probably in the middle of the pack as far as Detroit quality was concerned. Not having so much warranty work to do and having a majority of work being Customer Pay is a direct result of selling and servicing a quality product. Warranty problems are typically harder to diagnose than the average run of the mill normal maintenance. A dealer that has little warranty work and money tied up waiting for credit from the factory can more easily afford to take a guess and write off the occasional part to satisfy a customer. Back in the 80's Oldsmobile determined how many warranty claims to refuse the dealer by how that dealer compared in number of repairs to the other 4 dealers in the metro area. If we used 25% more of the same parts than the average of the other dealers for a particular complaint the rep would find a reason to reject some claims. Walking into the dealership to review warranty parts he knew up front how many would be approved.

Unfortunately and including the reasons stated above, Oldsmobile kept close track of which repairs that were being done under warranty on each automobile. They paid for a particular repair "1" time, correctly diagnosed or not. If the technician found no problem but went ahead and made a guess to solve the complaint Oldsmobile would pay for that repair under ideal repair ratio conditions. If that car came back with the same complaint and warranty repairs were again made for the same complaint, the factory would flag that repair for additional authorization and the first repair would be charged back to the dealer, parts and labor. That is the #1 reason parts or adjustments were/are simply not done for the sake of hoping that the problem will be resolved. Unfortunately that does not help the person that should be of the most primary concern, the customer.

Unfortunately and again because of the above stated reasons and because Oldsmobile did not pay to check each and every part, that procedure of checking each and every possible cause on every vehicle that come in for a warranty repair was not authorized or approved by the factory. Oldsmobile had a strict order in which to diagnose and if the computer had no codes, repairs past that point were most often on the dealers time and money. Remember, if the technician came up with a code on his own to warrant replacement of a part or make an adjustment, that repair had better be the final solution or risk the factory charging back that repair, parts and labor.
Basically, when a company is building a quality product and warranty problems are few and far in between when compared to the competition the service department breaths easier, can afford, and gladly goes the extra mile to please the customer. If the warranty repairs are 40% of your service business, life in the service department it quite touchy concerning warranty repairs and trying to insure a minimum of factory charge backs. Fewer chances are taken by the dealers with Detroit built vehicles.
Keep in mind also that not every technician is great, many are almost genius but a large percentage of technicians flow from one dealer ship to another including moving from a foreign car dealer to an American car dealer quite often.
Why are American car manufacturers so stingy with their warranty authorizations? IIRC the latest reports are that GM pays, and again IIRC, about 80% of the profit on every car for employee benefits.

I absolutely do not blame you at all.
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Leon wrote:

I dono - Mercedes, Audi, and VW are pretty low on that list. BMW was and has moved up tremendously. And even Hyundai is pretty low, although they have improved TREMENDOUSLY over the past years to make a decent car.

I know that - it comes from the top (car manufacturer)

That's the problem right there. I don't think it's necessarily a difference in quality - I had the same # of issues with my car and they have all been minor. But the dealer's attitude is what makes them OK by me - they take a proactive role in fixing them and addressing the concerns rather than a "we can't find it" attitude.
And when there are defects in the car, they seem willing to back them up. There were brake wear issues on my model. The manufacturer extended the warranty on the brakes to 36k. Saved me $500 on a brake job (pads and rotors all around). And when I took it in, the service guy's response was "Fronts are worn down, rears are OK, but we'll do the whole car so you don't have to come back for a while." That's what I want to hear as a customer. Not "At 32k, we did the front, rear was OK." at 40k the rears are shot, sorry about your luck.
As a result, I use the dealer for the most part regarding my maintenance and service needs.
I guess that's the problem - the Japaneese would rather have a system that builds loyalty long term (I'm most likely to return to this brand again for my next car.) rather than the quick buck of the American companies.

EXACTLY. It should not be my job to wait until the car leaves us stranded to get things fixed. I'd doubt most (if not all) customers like taking their cars to the dealer for work, so any concerns should be addressed properly. If it takes 10 parts to fix the problem, then that's GM/Ford/Toyota's problem - the customer buys a car that has a warranty, something goes wrong, it doesn't matter how much it costs the mfg, as long as it's fixed.
If it takes more tech training, then that's what it takes. Promote a good working environment and your employees will stay. Promote a bad one and they will leave.

That's a shame. It's going to be their downfall. I think they build fine cars for the most part, it's the service that SUCKS. And if this is the way it's run, they deserve to go bankrupt.
They have to realize there's 100 different cars I could buy - I chose them and they need to ensure I have a good experience so I come back.

That's true. I work in IT, have for 12 years now. Have no certs or anything like that. Yet I'm constantly explaining things to our MCSE, MCSA, CCNA, etc. people how things work. It's a shame really - they have the paper but cannot think outside the box.

The shame is it's not because of the quality of the car, it's because of the quality of the service.....
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On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:00:46 -0500, Newsgroup User

No, IMO, the problem is quality. You personally had the same number of issues with a non-USA car that you had with a USA car. Overall, though, USA cars have far more problems. The dealers of a car from the USA has no time to have the same attitude as the dealer of a well built car.
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snipped-for-privacy@rogers.com wrote:

So that's how that gunk go on there!

Wasn't GM the first to use torx drives in large quantitites on their cars?
I would suppose that torx dirves could be easily automated and would carry more torque (hence the name) than Phillips or Robertsons. Is that so?
--

FF


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If I remember correctly from the Modern Marvels episode on "The Hardware Store", Phillips, himself, didn't invent the screw named for him. He was just a business guy who bought the rights.
Josh
Leon wrote:

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That version sounds plausible too. But try to find an auto-feed square drive screw system. It is not suitable for rapid insertion as the driver and screw can find themselves at exactly 45 degrees, stopping the driver bit from insertion. The other reason is that the bit and hole are almost the same size, .. with Phillips or Posidriv, the tip is much smaller than the opening at the head of the screw making insertion inevitable without risk of a jam.
I'm talking about automation screw drivers which can screw several per second. (Usually stationary equipment on an assembly line.)
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Mr. Robertson got 'Avro-Arrowed'.
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I understand what you are saying and totally agree. But if going 1 at a time the square drive had to be a big improvement over the slotted head.
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Hell yes! No comparison. Then, when you find out that you can get square drive bits with just a hint of taper on the tip, installing cabinets just became whole lot easier, especially when you use an impact driver. You actually have to pull the driver off the screw. No falling off, no wobble. Almost orgasmic.
Then again.. a brass slotted screw..just flush in a piece of well finished dark wood, looks pretty tasty.
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wrote:

Hey you are preaching to the choir. I have been using square drive "with a taper" in South East Texas, a long long way from Canada,;~) since the early 80's. I recall when they were simply not to be had locally. And yes the taper is the cream de la cream, but some times it is annoying when you have to jerk the driver to get the bit out of the screw head. On the other hand when reaching from the top end of a 20' ladder to put up a light fixture that feature is very nice. On my last kitchen redo the former owners were a bit AR. They put hard putty in all the heads of the mounting screws inside the cabinets and of course they screws were Phillips dry wall screws. My Phillips bit in my drill was simply caming out. But then that light came on and I put the Phillips bit in my impact driver. The screws came right out.
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LOL..At least you know the words and the melody. Many here aren't in the choir...yet. :-)
[snip]

That's one to remember. Thanks for that. I wonder how well an EZ-Out would work in an impact driver.
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Robatoy wrote:

How would I know the difference between a Philips and a Pozi-cross?
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

A Phillips is in the shape of a four pointed star. So is the posidriv, but it has small lines running at 45 degrees from the centre of the star... so it looks like two Phillips stars... one of them too shallow to take a driver.
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On 2 Mar 2006 12:16:44 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

fit very loose in a Pozi screw. A Pozi driver will have PZ and a number on it, such as PZ2. I think Pozi screws are getting a bad rap here. For some applications they are fine, such as for Euro hardware and the hi-lo screws for Melamine.
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"Robatoy" wrote --Snip--

--Snip--

I hate Posidriv heads. I usually find out AFTER camming one out. Grrrrr.
Ok, so I'm on a job site, I have ONE spare screw in the hardware pack (gotta love the overcount), a short deadline, and NO posidriv bits available anywhere. Grab the spare #2 phillips bit, off to the grinder and CAREFULLY take the point down so most of the bit now engages the slots. CAREFULLY install all the bits, and write off that #2 Xcelite.
Grrrrr.
Rick
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