Ponderings in the shop

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So, killfile me, and get on with life.
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Actually it is not 'normal' communication style. It is a convention which has been adopted for newgroups.

You don't repeat everything that's been said in a conversation before you add your bit, do you? If you're writing a reply to a letter you don't quote the whole letter first, do you? Why should everyone wade through what's already been said in the topic before getting to the most recent addition. You'll notice that bottom posting is far less common in e-mail.
Fundamentally the convention of bottom posting is a relic of the early, academic, days of the Internet when there was a wide variability in how long it took for a message to be received and they often arrived out of order.
Since bottom posting is a convention, it makes good sense to follow it -- if you're not going to carefully trim and interpost your comments. But it is about as outdated and maladaptive as a QWERTY keyboard on a computer.
Thank you. I feel much better now.
--RC
Sleep? Isn't that a totally inadequate substitute for caffine?
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:10:01 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@TAKEOUTmindspring.com

Right, within the context of Usenet, it's the normal communication style.

Nope. It seems that people not trimming as appropriate is the problem. I've never seen a top-poster do anything but put their answer at the top and leave the rest of it in place.

Yes, and yes, in that order.

As opposed to Usenet, where message order and delivery is guaranteed? Um....

It makes sense to answer points after the points being answered, so the person answering the response can see what the context is.

I tried DVORAK for a while, but switched back when I got my first sysadmin job, and had to type on 20 or 30 different terminals in a typical day. (long time ago, before terminal servers existed). Too much switching.
Dave Hinz
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"das glasperlenspiel"
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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wrote:

Fun, huh?
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:36:34 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@all.costs wrote:

It would be more fun if I did not rue the cost of time involved for those who spend more of their lives in front of a CRT than a workbench.
This newsgroup only exists because we are not in the shop.
I come home from my job of telling other people what to build and how to build it, and I vent my frustration at not being able to simply build the stuff myself.
Most of the people who were worth a damn on this newsgroup have moved on.
It's a damned shame to say it but it's true.
There is the making and only the making - everything else is bullshit.
When I see people argue the fine points of newsgroup etiquette, it makes me want to puke.
Grab a saw, sharpen it, cut some wood, plane it, make some joints, plane it all smooth - find a finish that works for your piece - give something to someone who means something to you.
Amen.
The last thing that this newsgroup should be about is about how to act on a newsgroup.
There should be much more interesting fish to fry.
There are more than a few posters who seem to me as though they have never worked a piece of wood in their lives - yet have worked wonders in their heads.
I have no respect for that.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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I could not agree with you more on this Tom. If more people would just concentrate on woodworking and not on all the BS.This would be a far more useful newsgroup. I have pretty well stopped trying to help anyone here by answering questions as it seems everyone just wants to be negative about any thing and everything that is posted.I find my time better spent in other ways than trying to help someone with a genuine question about woodworking and then to have some half wit who has spent more time in front of there PC than in a shop want to start an argument over something totally of topic. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way and in the end the only people who lose are the poor souls who never get there question answered because of all the BS. Maybe there should be a group called rec. arguments or something like that for people who just want to be negative and argumentative all the time.
Just my 2 cents worth Chris Melanson BLH Millwork LTD
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Cool Dude! For the most part I agree with you. But... There are people who have no experience, little money for tools, an undeveloped imagination or a fear of some kind,(failure, getting hurt ridicule etc) who learn by the discussions that go on here. I am an experienced wood cutter but I can ask other people about tools or answer questions from amateurs who don't have a clue how to get some of this info or even how to evaluate the info they get. Seeing it discussed to death here gives them a well rounded picture of how many ways there are to connect two pieces of wood, round an edge or buy a hammer. While I empathize with your impatience, I have been thinking about how many pro's took time away from there work to answer stupid questions from a newbie. Amateur, roughly translates to "for the love of" I strive to be an amateur. max

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Which explains why you only post about making, right Tom?
You post as much off topic bullsh*t as anyone else, Sirrah. DAGS.
And ya know what? It doesn't bother me one whit. I enjoy your posts.
There's an amazing number of *on-topic* posts here. Hundreds a day. HUNDREDS! The off-topic shit I don't want to read is so simple to filter it doesn't bear mentioning. And as you and many others pointed out during the rec.woodworking.all-ages episode, you like SOME of the off-topic shit. So who made you the arbiter of off-topic shit, Tom? Off-topic shit is equal, but some off-topic shit is more equal than others? GMAB.
Why some people (including you) get bent out of shape about the minimal noise in an amazingly active newsgroup that's 90-95% signal makes me shake my head...
If you want a nice quiet newsgroup, alt.woodworking is only seeing 3 -5 posts daily. Lots of opportunity. If you want your own community, it's easy enough to form one.
Personally, I'd rather you learned how to filter and ignore, and stuck around, but dropped the sanctimony.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong...
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:35:03 -0600, Dave Balderstone
balderdash.
Learn to read, dweeb. The comments were made in reaction to a discussion about top posting.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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I understand you much better now.
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Tom Watson wrote:

I know that's most of the time I spend here. Simply do a Google search for my address and you can figure out when my shop's working. If it's not (or I'm not), I'm in here. If it works and I basically know what I'm doing, most of my woodworking-Jones time is spent in the shop.
Unfortunately I had knee surgery recently _and_ my shop is still full of boxes from my move, so I'm hanging out in here because all I want to do right now is woodwork and this is the closest I can get without being able to stand up on my own.
Hopefully I'll have everything running not long into the new year and it'll be at least another two years before I'm here on a regular basis, again. :)
-BAT
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Brett Thomas responds:

Ain't it fun. Three times, one left, two right, just had lubricant (Hyagel?) injections in both sides (series of 6 fun shots, 3 per knee, one per week). Eventual left knee replacement, but the surgeon wants me to peel off pounds, in the meantime telling me that the lubricant can be repeated every 6 months if needed. It seems to work well for me--he also tells me it only works for half the people who get it. Knees are much better. Not young enough for running, but much better. So there's less pain in your future, too, I'd guess.
Good luck with the recovery.
Charlie Self "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good." H. L. Mencken
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On 01 Dec 2004 10:19:00 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Dad had his replaced a little over 8 years ago -- he had gotten to where he couldn't climb into and out of a car without severe pain and couldn't walk long distances without having to sit down for a while. The replacements totally gave him his life and productivity back and have lasted well. Unfortunately, his hips are giving him problems now -- they are trying to stave off replacements for a while.
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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 20:47:09 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Interesting that you mention that... Years ago, when she was about 75, my mom had both knees replaced, and had a lot of hip pain afterwards... the specialist said that it was a combination of age, pain that she had before but was kind of covered by the knee pain, and stress on the hip sockets from her knee problems over the years.. I think as the process of knee replacement gets more common and folks have it done earlier, as in before the knee tweaks other joints, these problems will be less frequent... it IS a great thing, though, that we can replace joints now..
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On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:13:58 +0000, mac davis wrote:

I have a buddy who had a hip replacement about 6 years ago, then both knees about 3 years ago and finally the other hip this year. He also has a metal rod in one arm from almost ripping of the arm. Like (I think) Charlie Self, all this damage was the result of riding a crotch rocket over the hills and through the woods.
He claims to now be pain free. The Doc wants him to consider a shoulder replacement, but he says no as there is no guarantee of swinging a golf club after that. He claims it's getting very difficult to swim with all the metal parts ;-)
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

I was talking with a friend about this the other day - when they were writing science fiction thirty years ago, they of course figured that the first "bionic man" would be some big-deal major replacement thing. What happens of course, is instead that, piece by piece, Grandpa ends up being 25% non-organic by mass as parts wear out...
-BAT
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Doug Winterburn responds:

Heh. Yeah, enduro riding can be rough on the clumsy.
I finished my knee lube injections (Hyagel?) about a week ago. Knees have been improving since, and are almost totally pain free now.
You don't know what that means until you've spent most of a decade with a pain level ranging from 5 to about 9 along with all the other fun signs of not being a teenager any more.
I walk up the stairs from my office and it doesn't hurt! My wife is probably sick of my saying that, but it is remarkable enough to me to be wonderful those times I notice--and I notice ever time I walk up the stairs.
Charlie Self "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good." H. L. Mencken
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<snip>

been
pain
being
probably
those
Tell us more, Charlie. I get cortisone in both knees every 6 weeks. That & Vicodin keeps me functioning somewhat. Left knee has NO cartilage left, post trauma from broken knee joint bone in '74, right knee from taking all the stress. Is what you've had one of the multiple shot "permanent" fixes?
--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.
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Norman D. Crow asks:

Hyagel or Hyagen or something close. An injectable joint lubricant that works for maybe 50% of those who get, according to the VA surgeon who set mine up. I had had cortisone, adn the VA is getting really, really leery these days of parceling out Vicodin, though I sometimes think I had loaded up on that too much when I interview for, and accepted, that job in Parkersburg.
Cortisone did absolutely nothing for me except create more pain in other areas. Not too handy.
I've got a tape on a better known brand somewhere upstairs--unless it got tossed in the pre-holiday cleaning...the tape's gone but the name came back: SynVisc. According to my doctor, they are the same thing, or close enough.
A series of 3 injections in each knee, at the kneecap...to be honest, I didn't watch to see exactly where each went in, but he injects a lump that causes more ache--well, really, pain--than does the shot. That leaves fairly quickly, and I drove the 50 miles home (auto tranny, though: left my truck and used the car). Come back in a week and get #2, etc. I started getting light relief after #1 in the left knee. The right knee is now almost totally pain free. The left knee, with a 30 year old screw holding the kneecap from slipping, plus a potful of arthritic build-up, is stiff, but almost pain free.
It is worth doing a google check and asking your doctor about SynVisc anyway. I'm told the cost is in the neighborhood of $350 per knee but that may be out of date.
AFAIK, there are NO side effects, nothing at all, particularly compared to a mix of cortisone and Vicodin.
I'm told it may last 2 years, so it's not really permanent. But I'm also told that the shots can be repeated at 6 month intervals if needed.
Good luck.
Charlie Self "Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." Edgar Bergen, (Charlie McCarthy)
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