Plywood armor plating

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Sending all those boys and girls into harm's way without adequate personal armor, adequate vehicle armor, adequate numbers, and adequate planning killed and maimed a hell of a lot more of them than anything "Teddy boy" might say, but fascist wannabes like you can't do anything more than suck up to this administration.
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"GregP" wrote in message

While
Well, in Teddy boys case it would have be "say" ... we know for a fact that he won't _do_ anything but save himself and let someone else drown.

LOL ... "fascist wannabe"? Your ability to put forth a reasonably intelligent reply seems to have reached its upper limit, eh. GregP?
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wrote:

I've been having an interesting discussion with Swingman on this topic and did not consider his viewpoint to be that of a "fascist wannabe."
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Not sure I follow you here. There are some (many?) who would say that the opposition and the press should not be able to criticize the president or his policies. I don't think that's the same as shouting "fire" in a crowded building.

I think that if the vision is there and the assessment is honest, then the public will follows. If the strategy is executed skillfully, then admiration follows. When you see the public will wavering, it's a sign that the justification for the war was oversold, the costs were undersold, and the implementation of it was poor.
The problems in Iraq are not due to the troops. The troops have performed admirably and I do not know anyone who does not respect the job they have done. The problems in Iraq are due to the policymakers and politicians.
Our troops understand how democracy works. I think we ought to give them the credit they are due and assume that they understand that support for the troops is not synonymous with support for our politicians.

Yeah. A very bad situation.
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"Nate Perkins" wrote in message

I may have misunderstood you. I was under the impresssion that you were implying that there should be no limits on free speech. My apologies.

To a point. There is no doubt in my mind, having experienced it, that the exercise of free speech, like that practiced by Jane Fonda, does often provide aid, comfort and strength to the will of the enemy. Having your picture taken, complete with helmet, operating a North Vietnamese antiaircraft gun used to shoot down American pilots is going over the "limit".

Unfortunately, that assumes an informed public. Did you notice the absolutel surprise of many with regard to the number of folks who actually voted in Iraq yesterday? Do you not suspect that much of that surprise, and the wavering on the war, is due to the a slanted and false assesment of some in the media congomerates, and those who are able to manipulate and agendize it?

No argument there.

The net effect is two "extreme" viewpoints, as we now see on talk radio and much of the print media, and very little of the moderate discussion that followed in the wake of multiple sources of news in a region (ie. the three newspapers in a town, versus one). This state of affairs is even more obvious if you can remember the relatively more moderate political atmosphere between WWII, Korea and the Vietnam War.
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...

I think the media are finding that they can get ratings by catering to and cultivating the extremes. For the most part, I think their actions can be explained by simple greed for ratings. They basically slant the news so as to tell their viewers what the viewers want to hear.
It's interesting to watch the news as presented on the BBC World News or on SCOLA. Frequently a different take than our media.
I am too young to remember WWII or Korea (I was born three months after Kennedy was assasinated). But I am pretty sure that in today's polarized environment a really good moderate president (say Eisenhower IMHO) could never be elected.
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:04:36 GMT, the inscrutable Nate Perkins

Define "American ideals", please. Those of our forefathers or those of the current regime, or those of the American public? They're VASTLY different, and I have no doubt that the former are spinning wildly in their graves at the moment from the current regime's antics. We're in a SHITLOAD of trouble if you guys don't realize that.

True. We can never effectively fight terrorism and any attempt to do more than we did pre-911 is foolhardy and drains our reserves. That, sir, is precisely what bin Laden WANTS. We're spending something like a million dollars to every one he spends against us.

Oh, it does. When the "enemy" knows precisely what we're planning and when, knows precisely how many forces they fight and the makeup of said forces, he can become more prepared than we are. Current media broadcasts give far too much real-time, intricate knowledge for the safety of our troops.

A-freakin'-men. We're doing absolutely nothing to address the CAUSE.

Too true.

Is that any reason NOT to fix any of the broken systems in the country? Our justice system is horribly broken, allowing stupid lawsuits to ruin it in the name of money. Politicians are bribed, media folks are bribed, prison guards are bribed, murders are let out early while rec drug users rot in prison. Martha goes to prison while O.J. stays out?
The Drug War costs billions of dollars. Do you know how many tons of drugs are on our streets at any given time TODAY? Given the billions spent, should there be -any- if the system worked?
Let's slow the wound called "The Drug War" and use some of those funds to pay for to equip and protect our troops while they're in this assinine war, eh?
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...

Founding fathers IMHO. Others may differ. I agree they are probably spinning.
...

...
No reason not to fix them. I think America's a great country. We can afford to recognize our faults as well as our virtues, and always try to do better.
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Trashing "the press" globally is a neat way to equate them to the nonsense on talk radio (left and right). "The press" isn't perfect, but overall it is much closer to the truth than talk radio and our government.
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"GregP" wrote in message

Couple
end
And why do you think that is? We only have one government, but historically have had many different voices in the "press" ... it takes all the voices to keep the one in line.
Problem is "corporate"consolidation of the many voices of the press into fewer entities these days ... and the fact that the ones that make the big dollars are blatantly one sided, or worse, for sale.
I will say this ... if my big city (Houston) is any example, the press is not nearly as "free", or as impartial, as it was 30 years ago ... and that's a fact.
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Some are, most aren't, tho there has been a lot less criticism of Bush's antics than there would have been 30 years ago.

That's most likely true.
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wrote:

Rob.. In my experience, that's a squad or platoon level decision... The brass in the choppers make decisions based on the "big picture" and the pressure on them from higher up brass... The guys on the ground that are taking fire are the ones that have to decide whether they're going to disobey the order from "above" to avoid needless loss of their people..
I was one of many NCO's that were busted for not letting my people do stupid things that were ordered by people that were too new "in country" to understand what was going on where the rubber meets the road...
As to your question about men going blindly forward when ordered, that's why they drafted teenagers... they still think that they're immortal..
Try getting a large group of middle age guys to charge that gun, and you'll have a discussion like this one first.. lol
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"mac davis" wrote in message

You don't have to "disobey" orders in most cases, just be smart about it.

Good on you ... those with courage and sense did the same thing to protect their men when the "rubber met the road". My hat's off to you.

Those "middle aged guys" are at staff level and you don't often see them in the thick of things, in any war. In yours and my war, they were famous for flying around in the relative safety of a helicopter at 1500 feet, trying to get time in for an Air Medal while playing general.
It was always easy to ignore them and do what you need to do to both accomplish the mission and protect your own men ... funny how those Prick25's suddenly wouldn't work for air to ground communications on occasion, aint it?
As they say, the idea is not to die for your country/cause, but to make the enemy die for his ... as you obviously know firsthand, you learn this real early if you're smart, and you die if you don't.
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Thanks, Mac. That I understood.
00
Rob
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wrote:

While the discussion rages among the "army of one" types, the actual action, for which the infiltration was to have provided a diversion, has resulted in a four time casualty rate.
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Read Blackhawk Down... the movie was dramatic... the book will make anyone who's been there and done that feel it as much as read it..
The Humvee is a jeep replacement, NOT a tank or armored personnel carrier... One of my sons is a HV mechanic, and he says that a HV with armor has no speed or agility and needs a tanker truck following it to replace what that turbo diesel drinks... just not practical as an armored vehicle because the armor is way too heavy and that it's NOT built to be armored, any more than a WWII jeep was..
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mac davis wrote:

I finally saw one of those up close and personal. Wow. Not armored is an understatement. Nothing gives you a feeling of security in an under-fire situation like sitting on a cushion directly on top of a gas tank, right?
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:57:08 -0500, Silvan

Best place for it. Two things that I want really well protected are my ass, and the fuel tank. At least it's not in the main exit doors, like a BMP ( d'oh! ).
Secondly, it's diesel not petrol. That's a small comfort.
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"Silvan" wrote in message

Security is relative. Flying in a helicopter, with no armor, while watching the tracer rounds pass by, and knowing that you're only seeing about 1/7th of those little buggers, doesn't leave you with a helluva lot of regard for the dangers of sitting atop a tank of diesel, not gas, while tooling along on the ground.
Besides, you gotta put the tank somewhere. I'm certain that if some of the global master thinkers/planners ranting against reality hereabouts can come up with a better solution, they'll find someone to listen.
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Swingman notes:

Flying in a helicopter defies natural laws anyway, IMO. I think they told us our fuel tanks were "cells" with self-sealing lining. I used to wonder what difference that would make with nice green tracers doing their penetrating thing. I was glad I was never in one in such a circumstance, though, and remain glad today.
But it doesn't take firepower: prelim word is that the Sea Stallion that went down yesterday killing 31 Marines was screwed up by a sandstorm.
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