Plywood armor plating

It's mainly because I wouldn't know Robin Hartl if she bit me on the ass, don't care which hand Sears uses to screw its customers, figured out a long time ago how to remove insulation from wires, and have no problem whatsoever finding my local BORG.

The short answer is don't you worry about it ...

Reply to
Swingman
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What would you like to hear? ... "Nuclear"?

Sorry, not from me..

All military unit's readiness to perform a mission revolves around two major categories: Men and Materiel. Depending upon the mission, and often political necessities, neither has to be at "full strength", according to the respective table of organization and equipment, to perform effectively.

I wouldn't worry too much about the "tools" at this point ... as noted above, the "will" to finish what we started is the bigger concern, due the fools and dunderheads, and the media that fuels their antics, who refuse to see the consequences of not doing so.

Reply to
Swingman

"Swingman" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

No, that's definitely what I would not like to hear. Although I am sure that for some there is no limit to the "tools" that would be employed.

Amen.

It's not just a question of the military. There are political, economic, and public relations tools to be used as well. Those that consider only the military tool and neglect the other tools can rapidly find themselves in a losing battle. Treating everything like a nail because all they know how to use is a hammer.

No argument that our armed forces are functioning above all possible expectation. And the problems in Iraq are certainly not the fault of our troops.

I think it is the fools and dunderheads that got us into this mess to begin with. Besides, the rights of free speech and free press are fundamental to a democracy (at least until some dunderhead decides otherwise).

Reply to
Nate Perkins

. Besides, the rights of free speech and free press are

Except, of course, at Harvard ... or anywhere if you're not PC.

Reply to
George

It's hard to disagree with you, but the point is moot ... we're in it up to our eyeballs. The task now is to deal a blow to our avowed enemies while we extricate ourselves, or walk off and stick our heads in the sand, ignoring global reality in the 21st century.

There is also a point when "free" speech provides aid to the enemy. Couple that fact with today's press, that can be bought by either side, and you end up in a dangerous haze that forces the path taken to be based passion and politics, instead of reason.

Reply to
Swingman

"Swingman" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

There are alternatives besides "staying the course" and "sticking our heads in the sand." It is not a sign of weakness to learn from our mistakes, it is a sign of resiliency and strength. I also believe that now the mistake of going to war has been made, we must succeed ... and adjustment of our approach is much needed. It is not unpatriotic for that to be pointed out.

Nonsense. American ideals are the only thing worth fighting for. Sometimes fighting while upholding those ideals is harder, but in the long run worth it. When you start censoring free press and free speech in the name of supporting the war, then you are already operating in a dangerous haze based on passion and politics.

Reply to
Nate Perkins

Trashing "the press" globally is a neat way to equate them to the nonsense on talk radio (left and right). "The press" isn't perfect, but overall it is much closer to the truth than talk radio and our government.

Reply to
GregP

That is a damn provincial attitude to the rest of the world, and a perfect example of head-in-the-sand when it comes to global terrorism.

Whoa .. bucko!. Not old enough to remember WWII, or much American history are we?

There is nothing "nonsense" about limits on free speech. AAMOF, it is a historical fact in this country since day 1 (remember the principle of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater), particularly in times of war or national danger ... and if we lose this one, WWII will look like a walk in the park.

Solution: get your head out of the sand and start listening to what is going on around you when it comes to a "free press" also ... Dan Rather and CBS, and the paying of "journalists" by the present administration, sound familiar?

Reply to
Swingman

And why do you think that is? We only have one government, but historically have had many different voices in the "press" ... it takes all the voices to keep the one in line.

Problem is "corporate"consolidation of the many voices of the press into fewer entities these days ... and the fact that the ones that make the big dollars are blatantly one sided, or worse, for sale.

I will say this ... if my big city (Houston) is any example, the press is not nearly as "free", or as impartial, as it was 30 years ago ... and that's a fact.

Reply to
Swingman

Let me clarify that, Nate ... I meant you in the larger sense, not "you" in particular.

Sorry ...

Reply to
Swingman

Some are, most aren't, tho there has been a lot less criticism of Bush's antics than there would have been 30 years ago.

That's most likely true.

Reply to
GregP

"Swingman" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

No, this idea that somehow we have to give up our freedoms in order to more effectively fight terrorism is wrong. The idea that somehow our democratic process of free speech, free press, and political opposition somehow provides aid to the enemy is wrong, too. It's entirely possible to fight a smart war on terrorism and still protect our ideals. We are not fighting a smart war on terrorism.

There are some people that say we need to permit torture, indefinite imprisonment of American citizens without charge or legal counsel, suspension of habeas corpus, supression of free speech, censorship of news reports from the battlefield -- those people scare me as much as Bin Laden. Countries that allow this wake up one day and find they live in a dictatorship.

Right, I'm not old enough to remember WWII (I'm only in my early-mid

40's). I do remember a fair amount of American history. America's not perfect, but generally it has valued democratic ideals and in the periods of history where that's not been done it's usually viewed negatively later (e.g., Joe McCarthy, Nisei camps, etc).

Yes, there are limits on free speech, especially involving public safety and libel. Of course that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not the political opposition has the right (or duty) to point out the failings of the current leadership. I believe they do. We are talking about whether the process of democratic dissent provides aid to the enemy. I believe it does not.

I agree that the press is not doing as good a job as it ought to. It's not asking the critical questions, it's sloppy, it's partisan. It accepts dodges and nonanswers from our politicians. It's even being bribed by our politicians. But for all its many faults, it's still part of the system of (what used to be and ought to be) essential checks and balances.

Reply to
Nate Perkins

"Swingman" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

No offense taken. It's an interesting discussion.

Reply to
Nate Perkins

Of course, that is EXACTY what I was talking about. :)

Right on ...

Do you not think that "will" can also be gauged from the amount of ostensible dissent, particularly when the dissent is trumpeted as an agenda by some in the news media"?

What do you think of Tedddy boy calling for a firm pullout date, even knowing that the terroist would benefit immensely from that knowledge? While it is no more than political posturing in his case, it shows a reckless disregard for those in harm's way, IMO. Ask the surviving POW's from RVN what effects the likes of Jane Fonda had on their existence as prisoners.

While I can't disagree, and that is the ideal However, I am afraid that may be rapidly disappearing. What makes me say that is my perspective of approximately 50 year of seeing how narrow the field has become in all forms of media here where I live. From a three newspaper town one newspaper in a city of 4 million, from numerous radio stations to most being owned by one company.

Reply to
Swingman

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:04:36 GMT, the inscrutable Nate Perkins spake:

Define "American ideals", please. Those of our forefathers or those of the current regime, or those of the American public? They're VASTLY different, and I have no doubt that the former are spinning wildly in their graves at the moment from the current regime's antics. We're in a SHITLOAD of trouble if you guys don't realize that.

True. We can never effectively fight terrorism and any attempt to do more than we did pre-911 is foolhardy and drains our reserves. That, sir, is precisely what bin Laden WANTS. We're spending something like a million dollars to every one he spends against us.

Oh, it does. When the "enemy" knows precisely what we're planning and when, knows precisely how many forces they fight and the makeup of said forces, he can become more prepared than we are. Current media broadcasts give far too much real-time, intricate knowledge for the safety of our troops.

A-freakin'-men. We're doing absolutely nothing to address the CAUSE.

Too true.

Is that any reason NOT to fix any of the broken systems in the country? Our justice system is horribly broken, allowing stupid lawsuits to ruin it in the name of money. Politicians are bribed, media folks are bribed, prison guards are bribed, murders are let out early while rec drug users rot in prison. Martha goes to prison while O.J. stays out?

The Drug War costs billions of dollars. Do you know how many tons of drugs are on our streets at any given time TODAY? Given the billions spent, should there be -any- if the system worked?

Let's slow the wound called "The Drug War" and use some of those funds to pay for to equip and protect our troops while they're in this assinine war, eh?

---------------------------------------------------- Thesaurus: Ancient reptile with excellent vocabulary

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Reply to
Larry Jaques

Sending all those boys and girls into harm's way without adequate personal armor, adequate vehicle armor, adequate numbers, and adequate planning killed and maimed a hell of a lot more of them than anything "Teddy boy" might say, but fascist wannabes like you can't do anything more than suck up to this administration.

Reply to
GregP

Well, in Teddy boys case it would have be "say" ... we know for a fact that he won't _do_ anything but save himself and let someone else drown.

LOL ... "fascist wannabe"? Your ability to put forth a reasonably intelligent reply seems to have reached its upper limit, eh. GregP?

Reply to
Swingman

"Swingman" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Not sure I follow you here. There are some (many?) who would say that the opposition and the press should not be able to criticize the president or his policies. I don't think that's the same as shouting "fire" in a crowded building.

I think that if the vision is there and the assessment is honest, then the public will follows. If the strategy is executed skillfully, then admiration follows. When you see the public will wavering, it's a sign that the justification for the war was oversold, the costs were undersold, and the implementation of it was poor.

The problems in Iraq are not due to the troops. The troops have performed admirably and I do not know anyone who does not respect the job they have done. The problems in Iraq are due to the policymakers and politicians.

Our troops understand how democracy works. I think we ought to give them the credit they are due and assume that they understand that support for the troops is not synonymous with support for our politicians.

Yeah. A very bad situation.

Reply to
Nate Perkins

GregP wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I've been having an interesting discussion with Swingman on this topic and did not consider his viewpoint to be that of a "fascist wannabe."

Reply to
Nate Perkins

Larry Jaques wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

...

Founding fathers IMHO. Others may differ. I agree they are probably spinning.

...

...

No reason not to fix them. I think America's a great country. We can afford to recognize our faults as well as our virtues, and always try to do better.

Reply to
Nate Perkins

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