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(I wrote, but Tanus doesn't have the ability to quote me properly saying:)

Backpedal noted. You pretend to defend chinese imported toxins until confronted with facts. Thanks for verifying that.

OK, so tell me specifically which recalls on productrecallwatch.com aren't accurate. Because, if they're wrong, it's not the fault of the messenger (me) but, the fault of the reporting entities (various). Show your work. Or just admit that you got nothing, which anyone who keeps current on the facts will know.
If only your point of view had ANY validity. And yet it doesn't. And yet you defend it. Why do you try to help people trying to kill me, my kids, and my pets?
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Not to start a war but you state that "we give you specs" how did you determine the exact specs that the Chinese were given? Is this information available on the Web?
I ask this because my experience in dealing with the Chinese is that they do meet the specs - right to the letter. If your spec is "paint it red" then they paint it red with the cheapest paint that they can locate. If you say "it must pass a protein check using the XYZ test" then it will.
But if you say "paint it red" using a paint with the following constituents - AND NOT CONTAINING ANY OF THE SUBSTANCES ON THE ATTACHED HAZARDOUS CONTENTS LIST" then that is exactly what you will get, but it may very well cost you more money.
Since this is a metal working group let me give you another example: All over Asia are machine shops (what we used to call job shops) and every one is equipped with Chinese machines. Lathes, milling machines, grinders, you name it. And every one of these machines is equal in quality to the American made machinery that I ran for many years, but you don't see this machinery in the U.S. because nobody wants to buy it - it costs too much. What everyone wants is the cheap Chinese junk from Harbor Freight. So that is what is what the Chinese sell to Harbor Freight - cheap junk that you can't find in most Asian countries because no professional shop here will buy it.
In short, "you want cheap - we got cheap" Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply)
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Bruce, you said something very interesting and something that makes sense to me.
What I do want to know is, how come those quality chinese goods are not seen in the US, as much as they deserve to be seen.
I mean, if I could buy a quality new machine for, say, 60% of what a new US made machine costs, I personally would do it. (assuming that support, etc is also available).
i
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Ignoramus8988 wrote:

I believe he already answered that, Ig.
Very well too.
Richard
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On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:53:23 -0600, Ignoramus8988

Frankly I don't know, but I can say that after perusing the pages of Harbor Freight I've seen none of these types of machines offered for sale here. The multi function mini machines are available but rare. I believe they are of European manufacture.
Do a search on Alibaba and see what is available, I think you will find it enlightening.
Regarding support I can't comment on what is available in the U.S. I suspect that it is a factor of who is the agent/supplier, but In Asia all machinery comes with guarantees and at least parts support.
Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply)
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wrote:

Of course. The specific chemicals spec'd for aqua-dots, for instance, and the chemical substituted, have been widely published. And each of the toy manufacturers has _claimed_ that lead paint was substituted for the specified paint, even to the point where the initial batches were made to spec, passed QA, and then the cheaper lead paint was substituted for later production.
Want links?

Eve if they have to put phenols in a food product, which will kill whatever eats it?

Yes, in theory, but in the case of this example, the spec was not followed. I'm kind of surprised that people who haven't followed the issue are springing to the defense of China on this one because, it's really not a supportable point of view.

Cheap is fine, if that's the spec. If the spec is "Use this polymer which doesn't metabolize into a drug that will induce coma if eaten", and they use one that does, because it's cheaper (yes I can provide cites), then THAT is a problem. And that's what they did in this case. And continue to do at every opportunity.
THAT, is the problem.
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Im fascinated by the fact the buffoon thinks that the end user or retailer is supposed to act as the QA department of a manufacturer 3500 miles away, and with 3 degrees of separation.
Thats idiocy.
Gunner
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As a former QC tech for a US factory, one of my tasks was to inspect incoming shipments using random samples to determine if they did indeed meet specifications. The shipments came from more than 3500 miles away, with many degrees of separation. One of the things we checked was chemical content of the paint. (More specifically, we checked for certain banned compounds and elements.)
That's not idiocy. It's responsible standard operating procedure. Or at least it was, fifteen years ago.
Are you telling me that factories today aren't inspecting their parts any more?
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Apparently, the US toy distributors were not inspecting their imports too much, until somebody found lead in the paint.
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wrote:

Yes, in manufacturing, that's only logical.

Of course not. It's also not the topic of discussion in this case.

The factories, are in China. And if they're inspecting 'em, the same people putting lead paint on the toys are the ones "inspecting" for it. Mattel or whomever then imports it, obviously without checking it. Yeah, they share the blame and are the only entity we can actually legally do anything about, but the ultimate blame belongs to the people putting banned substances in the products in the first place.
We're not importing toy parts, we're importing toys, packaged and ready for the store shelf.
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As has been pointed out, the distributors should be inspecting those toys even if they're "ready for the store shelf"
You can blame the Chinese factories all you want. They deserve it. But unless I misunderstand you, it seems you want to place no blame at all on the parent companies who are taking them, without any inspection, and placing them on the store shelves.
In my factory, we shipped out many things "Ready for the shelves" and we sometimes got shipments returned because of something somebody found in an inspection. Sometimes it was our fault, sometimes it was a mistake.
My point is that those toys should have had a better final inspection from the people that bought them. Part of the blame goes to the customer. Not all, but dammit, our people got sloppy too. You're supposed to keep better tabs on your suppliers than that.
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wrote:

Yes. As I've said several times, both here and on the website I built to show how bad the problem is, productrecallwatch.com . It downloads RSS feeds from the CPSC, FDA, DOT, and several other government sources. I haven't done this week's rundown yet but, dozens of products just last week with lead paint. From China.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me horribly. I've been quite clear that the importer is the only one who we can legally do anything with and they share some of the blame. I have also been quite clear and consistent that the factories choosing to use toxins in products made for the US, are doing so intentionally and are ultimately to blame.

Mistakes are also your fault. Whose else would you pretend they are? Seems to me, the culture is "profit at any cost to the customers, and apologize if we get caught". That is disgusting, but dozens of items a week? It is hard to come to any other conclusion.

BULLSHIT. The lead shouldn't be in there in the first place. This isn't a surprise to the factories deciding to use it.

BULLSHIT.
You disgust me.
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By "mistake", I meant that the inspector misinterpreted the specifications or used the wrong set of specs.

Well, we have something in common. You disgust me too. :-)
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wrote:

That is not an excuse for using lead paint. That is not an excuse for using 1,4-butanediol (metabolizes into coma-inducing drugs if swallowed) in a childrens toy, instead of the 1,5-butanediol that was specified. A Chinese factory decided to use the cheaper chemical, despite the fact that it's not safe.
A factory in China decided to use lead paint on decorations: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08050.html
What spec do you pretend could possibly be "misinterpreted" which could lead to someone thinking putting lead paint in direct contact with food is a good idea?
It's time that the US revokes China's "most favored trade nation status". Trade _partners_ do not intentionally poison the children of their customers. Pretending it's a mistake or anything other than a consious decision based on greed and malice. Which motivation is it? Are you trying to save a few pennies, or is your primary motivation in trying, intentionally, to harm the generation of Americans which may very well go to war with China?
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Gunner wrote:

Two of the major recalls were of toys sold by Mattel. They are not a retailer and yes they bloody well _are_ supposed to act as the QA.
Several were from Toys R Us, which is not some neighborhood shop, they're a very large franchise operation with centralized purchasing and they also should bloody well be making sure that what they are selling in their stores does not violate the safety laws. Jo-Ann fabrics the same way.
Put it this way, if you bought a saw from Sears and it threw the blade at you, would you be angry at Sears or would you be angry at the Chinese because in your opinion it wasn't Sears' responsibility to perform quality control on the products they sold?

No, idiocy was Mattel failing to ensure that what was sent to them was what was ordered.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Amen. Buffoon indeed. 35 miles away or 3500 miles away. Makes no difference. Importers are responsible for QC. But as I indicated in another post, I had used the term retailer when I should have used importer.
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How so? If they're 35 miles away, they follow USA'n laws. In China, obviously, not.

NO. Manufacturers are responsible to follow the damn spec and not just apologize if caught.

Backpedal noted.
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If I buy something for resale, then resell it to someone who is injured because of something intrinsic to the product, whose fault is it?
Mine!
If the product met my specifications, it's my fault because it was manufactured to my specification.
If the product didn't meet my specifications, it's my fault because I didn't insure that what I received was what I ordered before I resold it. True, I may have recourse to the supplier, but that's not my customer's problem. His beef is with me.
What's so hard to understand about that?
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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Tanus wrote:

Not when the manufacturer is paid to do it.
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Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Yes when the manufacturer is paid to do it. Boeing is paid to provide the airlines with quality airplanes. You think the airline taking delivery just puts the plane in service without having their mechanics go over it?
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