Ping Nailshooter

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Robert!
I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2 years ago.
Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building, probably 2 years old in a strip center.
Thanks
Leon
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Leon wrote:

Shit Leon - I can help you! We'll rent a welder and in a few weeks we can have it all just nice. Very affordable - just ask me - I'll reassure you.
Don't know about your codes down there but up here code does not necessarily require steel studs in a strip mall. Very common to see wood studs. Somewhat depends on the firewall separation between the spaces.
Wood studs would not preclude my initial statement though. We'd just have to make sure to weld to the sheet rock screws. A tad slower because of the precision involved, but I'm sure we can work that out. I would have to charge extra though to run additional sheetrock screws in to make sure they fall where I need them...
Because you are a friend, I'll even go so far as to throw the spot painting of the welds at no extra charge!
--
-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@windstream.net
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First, I don't know how you could beat Mike's offer. Sounds pretty stout t o me!
On the other hand, a couple of things to consider. When you have access to the other side of the wall, or if you have access to the wall before sheet rock installation (if this is a remodel) the fire code will allow you to i nstall blocking, usually 2X6 between the studs at the proper height to catc h your attachment rails. Screw to the blocking.
But i f the walls are closed (your cabs are an add), there are two different ways to handle it that I use. You need to drill an exploratory hole in the she et rock to see if it is one layer of 5/8" Firex, or two layers of 1/2". Di fferent code applications in the buidling's area will determine what is use d as well as whether the walls are fire blocking. One of our local burgs t hat was swallowed by San Antonio requires two layers of 5/8" Firex between lease spaces.
To hang uppers, I strip out the walls with 3/4" B/C ply cut into 8" strips. I glue the strips on the walls with plenty of Liquid Nails Heavy Duty adh esive and three screws long enough to penetrate the ply, sheet rock and sid e of the stud. I put in three screws per stud, pre-drilling the plywood (o nly) and use the fine thread sheet rock screws so they will bite the metal. If you pre-drill it is easier to mount your strips, but most important yo u can feel when the screw bites the stud and stop before you strip out the hole in the stud. With no pre-drill it's almost impossible to tell when to stop driving.
Spreading the load over 8" really gives you some holding power, even for re ally heavy cabinets. As we discussed before, I cut the strips 1/4" short o n the length, and hold them down 1/4" top and bottom. Vertical edges are c overed with a molding to cover the gap.
Using that method you can string line your walls for flat, and simply cut o ut or wedge out your plywood as needed to get your walls dead flat. For po orly built walls that's a life saver as the multiple layered fire code wall s can get pretty bumpy. This method also works well if you have a wood wal l that doesn't present an acceptable substrate.
The base cabs are different as you have to worry about counter tops. If yo u furr them out for a 3/4" attachment strip, then a post formed laminate to p will not work unless you back the top away from the wall (ugly!) leaving a 3/4" gap. Since they hold no weight, it is easy enough to secure these d irectly to the metal studs behind sheet rock. In this case, I apply the gl ue to the cabinet back's attachment strip after a dry fit and then run up a couple of screws per stud.
With all the finish outs I have done, I have <<never>> had a cabinet pull f rom the walls using that detail. But I have had plenty of problems with "m oly bolts", toggle bolts, plastic anchors, tap-ins, sheet rock anchors of < <all>> types, adhesives,and any of the newest latest and greatest ideas. So that's how I came up with the detail.
Hope that helps!
Robert
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Thank you ! I may very well only be the provider and not the installer. I really don't want to get into a liability situation. But I'll see what she wants this afternoon. Thanks again.
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On 3/17/2016 9:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Thank you? ;~)
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Steel studs seem to have become ubiquitous here in S Fla for ground level construction - wood only seems to be used on upper floors (*). As Houston has a similar climate, I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true there.
I hate the damn things.
John
(* note that in S Fla, this is only for interior walls, as framed exterior walls are not allowed. CBS only.)
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snipped-for-privacy@ix.netcom.com says...

Could you be kind enough to cite a source for that statement?
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says... >> (* note that in S Fla, this is only for interior walls, as

I assume you're referring to the above, which is actually a mis-statement. CBS and precast concrete are allowed.
Anyway, you'll find it in here:
<http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/toc/2014/Florida/Building% 20Code/index.html>
altho it takes some searching, because that's the code for all of Florida and you have to look for the parts that pertain to the "High Velocity Hurricane Zone".
CBS construction here is more complicated that other places, too, because you have to fill the blocks after the wall is built, and provide rebar in the wall to tie into the tiebeam that's poured at the top of the wall.
The history of that is wood frame construction was allowed up until Hurricane Andrew, when it was observed to fail completely and catastrophically. After that block construction was required, in the normal manner, until sometime in the late 90s when it was discovered that a reinforced roof could break the tiebeam off the top of the wall in a hurricane. Then they required the wall be filled, and tied with rebar into the tiebeam.
We have a lot of unique building rules. No staples in the roof, for example - everything must be nailed.
John
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John McCoy wrote:

Rebar in and fill every cell of every block? Or just at corners, openings, etc.?
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Fill every cell. I'm not familiar with the details of exactly how far apart the rebar to tie into the tiebeam are susposed to be, but it's not every cell, just every so far along.
You have to break out the side of a block every so often too, and close it with a board, which the inspector will remove after the wall is filled, to verify it's filled all the way down. It looks very odd while the wall's being built, with holes bashed into the blocks.
John
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 20:08:49 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

There was a local contractor here who after the site inspection before the pour, would pull the rebar out and put in on the next job for inspection. Same with his rebar in foundations and driveways. IIRC he did this for over 10 years before he was caught. Needless to say a lot of homes dropped in value.
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Steel studs? That's easy. MAGNETS!! Just mount some powerful neodymium magnets in the cabinets and just place them on the wall. Nothing could be simpler. You may need to hire some extra muscle to maneuver them into place.
Glad to help. ;-)
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On 3/18/2016 8:29 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:

I kind'a like that idea! LOL
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On 3/17/2016 6:44 PM, Leon wrote:

FWIW, What I do to install blocking for new cabinets on buildings with metal stud walls:
Buy a few 1 5/8" metal studs, cut them into 6" to 8" pieces (to make u shaped channels).
If drywall is already up, remove a 6" to 8" horizontal strip of drywall where you want the cabinet blocking.
Screw the resultant "u channel" (bottom of the u facing each stud) with sheet metal screws, one to each existing upright metal stud, between them, and flush with the front edge of each, and at the height you want your blocking.
You now have two metal "flanges", one one each side of the opening) facing you to which you can screw (inside the channel) either 3/4" plywood or blocking of your choice.
Replace the previously removed drywall if desired.
Takes longer to describe than to do. Quick, EZ, strong, very little fuss and mess, particularly in a commercial setting.
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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On 3/17/2016 6:44 PM, Leon wrote:

Problem Solved. I visited my vet, her husband, and her father. They are totally willing to install the cabinets themselves. In fact I think they actually prefer to do this themselves as this is going to be in their computer room. They all watched the building and their portion being built so they know what's what inside the walls, and they do have steel studs. Apparently dad witnessed all of the other cabinets that were hung and he seemed to remember it being done as Nailshooter indicated, 3/4" plywood glued to the wall and predrilled holes at the stud locations through the plywood only and fine thread DW screws into the steel studs. Anyway I will only have to build the cabinets and possibly a desk after this portion of the job.
Thanks to all for your suggestions, except Mike! LOL. At least you make me laugh.
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On 3/18/2016 4:46 PM, Leon wrote:

If you're going that route, and seeing how it is a commercial space, now would be a perfect time to take a second, angle the bottom back tack strips appropriately before assembling the cabinets, and introduce them to installing cabinets with French cleats ...
That way they could take possibly the best made cabinets they'll likely ever own with them if they move.
--
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On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote: .

Actually, that's and excellent thought. Workmanship like that is almost impossible to come by these days, and no doubt they cabinets will be well made enough to take to the next business location (or home!)should there be a remodel or relocation.
Robert .
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On 3/19/2016 1:17 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Changing the subject a bit. Robert, what do you recommend priming and or painting the MDO surface with?
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On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

MDO is known for its very occasional outgassing under your finish. This is n't a problem as long as you apply an oil or solvent based primer. If I ha d no spray equipment or it wasn't feasible to spray, I would use this stuff as it has a long "open time".
http://goo.gl/BjCtp0
It can be rolled out with a small foam roller and/or brushed. It needs to be put on thin, and is not for any kind of grain filling. One even coat is all you need, even with the bare wood veneer. You can spot primer defects though without the fear of blending.
If spraying, this is my favorite:
http://goo.gl/8m3uIq
I have shot gallons of that stuff and love it. It is super "hot" and will dry in about 30 minutes for any recoats or touchups you might have. You ca n top coat in as little as an hour (they say) or two hours (I say). Spray it thin and it adheres great and dries hard. Most guys don't like this as they have to work very fast with this stuff and it will foul your guns if y ou don't handle it properly. Like I said, I love it. On small cabinet job s, I can spray all my primer in the morning and all of my paint in the afte rnoon. A proper, sprayed factory finish in a day!
I like Sherwin Williams oil based enamels as well as Benjamin Moore's comme rcial line. I would place them dead even, but I use SW because I have an a ccount there and I am used to using their products. They also have great c ustomer support that in my experience has been knowledgeable about their pr oducts.
The SW "long oils" will dry out (if properly applied) looking like they wer e sprayed. This is a favorite of mine, sprayed/rolled/brushed.
http://goo.gl/jmQKl4
It's expensive, but really good stuff. Sprayed, it looks like a factory fi nish from a spray shop when applied to new wood. You will surprise yoursel f at how well this "lays out" when brushing or rolling. I have brushed out this product on moldings that looked sprayed when I finished, which surpri sed me as you know I have never blown my own horn about my brush work. The right brush and technique will give excellent results.
Absolutely run away from anything Valspar, Olympic, Devoe, and most of the other brands you get at different outlets. Their enamels (and for that matt er, most of their products) are awful.
I actually like HD's <latex> enamels a lot, but their oil based enamel does n't flow well off the brush and it doesn't lay out nearly as nice as the SW stuff. As a word of advice if they go to SW, do NOT get the lower priced enamels, stick with "Pro Classic". Their lower priced stuff is poor perfor ming and requires many coats to get what you end up with after a couple of coats of Pro Classic.
So, one thin coat of primer if manually applied. Two if you use a thin coa ts of sprayed fast dry. Two coats of paint, regardless of application meth od, applied the manufacturer's recommendations.
Robert
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On 3/21/2016 3:49 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I am not going to paint this job, the customer is. I will however probably supply the primer so that I know that it gets handled correctly up to that point. SW suggested a water based "extreme" primer however they were guessing, they suggested that I talk to the manager. I think I will use get what you suggested.

Kim's quilting studio was painted with that.

I am pretty much a SW fan.

Thank you Robert!
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