permit inspections

[Swingman]

"Swingman" wrote

Note to self: Proofread Carefully to see if you any words out!

[J. Clarke]

Or backs up or lets in noxious gases . . .

And if it leaks in an inconspicuous place and the leak decides to drain outside under the siding then your first notice of it may well be when you put your foot through the floor.

[evodawg]

Not sure how many inspectors are competent, as long as the HVAC and Plumber is licensed and has a good rep. everything should be ok. I'm a licensed General Engineer with a General A California License. My licensing authority says I cannot work on Houses. But I can build Schools, Bridges, and High Rise Buildings. I'm retired and do the remodel and handyman thing to keep me busy and I enjoy it. I know code but I can't advertise that I do this type work with my current license, ridicules!!! Homeowners need to do some homework before hiring some Jose on the cheap.

Plumbing to me is really basic, it's not rocket science. Electrical takes a little more initiative.

[Lee Michaels]

"Swingman" wrote

Looks to me. Everything seem to be. Did you notice missing?

[krw]

You're probably better off not being licensed to do houses. Your malpractice insurance would likely be more than you make (I'm assuming your part-time status here). As long as you can find enough fun stuff to do, lay low (and "advertise by word-of-mouth only). ;-)

I'm the opposite (though I'm an electrical engineer). Electrical, particularly home wiring, is trivial stuff. Plumbing isn't really all that involved either, I just hate doing it. ;-)

[krw]

That problem doesn't go away with licensed plumbers. BTDT, GTWF (got the wet foot). I can take far more time to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen.

[Tim S]

evodawg coughed up some electrons that declared:

If you guys want to see the future, come to England (specifically England, or Wales, but not Scotland or N Ireland because they're different...)

Went to see my local BCO (Building Control Officer or inspector). Over here, Building Control goes way beyond matters of safety. We need officialdom to change windows and external doors, heating (even vented CH), add insulation and all manner of other nonsense. Needless to say, much of this never gets checked in...

Oddly enough, gas work isn't covered. You only need to be CORGI (government approved scheme) licensed if doing for hire or reward (but you do need to be "competant" if doing your own work).

Anyway, after an hour's chat over some plans I have for renovating a 1950's bungalow, it was made clear to me exactly what he thought about of the fluffy stuff that's been added to the Building regs here.

I feel extremely lucky to have an inspector who's general attitude was "I'll help you make sure it safe, and about the fluffy stuff, do what you can but I won't hold you bang up to current standards because we realise it's not always practical with older buildings" (paraphrased).

Electrics has a lot of Councils flummoxed since it was brought under building regs in 2005. I was given the choice to have my worked checked over by a qualified electrician at some 300 pounds cost to me. Or get myself qualified (but not a government scheme member) and the council would accept my certification for work done by me on my own house.

I'm generally happy with electrics and can find my way around the IEE wiring regs, so I signed up for a course leading to the basic domestic installer's qualification, which wasn't hideously expensive and can be taken over 4 weekends. One more optional 3 day weekend has the option of obtaining a fully recognised qualification in the regulations themselves, though that goes beyond domestic work, covering industrial and agricultural. Had to go and buy a Megger off ebay so I can formally test my systems, but that's a good thing to do anyway.

Assuming the council don't change their mind, this is a fairly amicable arrangement which suits me.

However, the problem is that the approach varies wildly from council to council (the council which is responsible for buildings work and planning is the district or borough council, which is one level below the county council, so there are 100's of such councils over England). This is despite the regulations being set by Westminster.

The policy could even vary from inspector to inspector, though the senior inspector usually keeps his team singing roughly the same song.

It could so easily have been very very difficult to do anything due to the near impossibility of implementing some current regulations in an old house.

Cheers

Tim

[J. Clarke]

Who said anything about "licensed plumbers"? The issue was permits and code enforcement. Code, around here anyway, does not require "licensed plumbers".

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Makes sense to me. Just because you know the codes for big buildings does not mean you know the code for a house. Knowing the steel beam needed to support a bridge does not correlate with the truss for a 20 foot wide roof.

[Mark & Juanita]

Would that were true. When we lived in Lewisville, there was a subdivision in which the homes and sites were inspected by the city prior to receiving certification for occupancy. What the city failed to inspect was the fact that the back yards had been filled improperly and in several years, peoples' yards began to slide into the creek area behind the subdivision losing both backyard and in some cases endangering the integrity of the homes. The builder had gone bankrupt in the intervening time and the city disclaimed any liability despite having inspected and certified the homes and sites in compliance. Paraphrasing their words the bottom line was that the inspection process assured that the city collected its fees and taxes and was no guarantee of quality or habitability. Pretty much confirmed any cynical views I had toward the inspection process.

[Mark & Juanita]

... snip

Yeah, like making sure things are all hooked up. When we moved into our first house, friends helping us move told us there was a puddle of water in the guest bathroom. Turns out the A/C installer (or plumber, neither would admit to whose job it was) failed to connect the A/C drainage line to the bathroom drain -- so all that June Dallas humidity was dripping into our brand new cabinet and running onto the floor.

So you're saying just because they think they look good doesn't mean they are competent?

[Han]

Inspectors can also be very reasonable. We wanted a door between the back of the garage and the newly built parkside hallway. The garage will never be used for a car (built in 1929 for something mini), and this is well- known in Radburn. A regular door was a nono, so the inspector and the builder consulted and decided on a (temporary) drywalled closet to be built inside the garage. Upon final inspection approval the closet was removed and now we can move things into the garage from the street side and out on the park-side. Works fine for all. Our estate will have to handle the sale of the house, but that will be their concern.

[David G. Nagel]

A couple of years ago I upgraded my whole house air conditioning system. This involved installing a new compressor and a new evaporator coil. The evaporator is the part that cools. It was located in the attic and just fit up the access hole. A couple of weeks after a blister developed in one of the bedroom ceilings. When I broke the blister about a pint of water spilled on the bed below. I called the installer back and had them fix the problem. It seemed that the apprentice they had stuck in the HOT attic failed to properly install the condensate overflow. Last year when I moved the painter had to replace two sheets of plaster board in the ceiling that had been damaged by the overflow condensate. There is no mandatory inspection in the county or city where I lived but the installer was insured and honorable.

Dave Nagel

[David G. Nagel]

Han;

Just instruct them to build a drywalled closet prior to the sale inspection. The buyer can do as he/she pleases with the closet.

Dave N

[Doug Brown]

(major snippage)

I don't really want to argue with the above statement, but most places that I am aware of (in Canada) the permit fees do not come anywhere close to the actual cost of inspections and any effect on property taxes, other than for the most major types of renovations or additions, is negligible.

[Doug Brown]

So what if the City disclaimed any liability? If I were acting on behalf of the city I would likely do the same. That doesn't mean there is no liability and dispite the old saying you can fight City Hall, and win. This seems like a perfect case for a class action against the municipality involved.

[Swingman]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote

For the most part, it is true. There are, of course, exceptions to everything.

The discussion is about enforcing building standards, not the kind of things that happen when you expect the government to protect you from ALL the majestic physical forces of nature. :)

These houses could have been better than 'built to code' and still slide into a creek due to many more factors than the inspection process ... folks will simply continue to build where houses do not belong, and no amount of building standards, per se, will stop that.

The builder had gone bankrupt in the intervening

SOP ... the builder is ALWAYS the responsible party for building to the various codes/building standards, NOT the geopolitical entity responsible for enforcing building standards in their particular jurisdictions.

It has always been this way, and I don't even know that you want it any other way ... unless you want more government intrusion in your life than you already have.

It's basically simple, you want better government/enforcement ... you get involved in the process.

Granted, you may have to be intimately involved in the business to appreciate that building standards, and enforcement of same, increase the odds of a homebuyer purchasing a better product today then they did 40 years ago, and it is getting better all the time.

That said, you must understand that a house "built to code", is a house built to minimum standards ... but it is indeed a fact that we do have better "building standards" today.

But, to assume that means we have better built houses doesn't always follow.

The biggest problem I face in building the best house possible is NOT the building standards, and NOT the competent enforcement of same, it is the shoddy workmanship, and lack of pride in same, that goes into building these days ... along with almost non-existent, and competent, *supervision* during the process.

[Swingman]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote

I can probably go a good way to solving the mystery for you:

HVAC indeed ran the drain pvc. The sheetrockers covered it up behind the drywall (by accident? ... maybe, but it could also depend upon whose countries soccer team won the day before in the playoffs). The plumbers never saw the drain line because it was behind the sheetrock and under a cabinet/vanity to boot, and it is not the responsibility of the plumber to know/guess what the AC guys did ... not in this day and age, in any event.

Lay the blame as follows:

The builider for NOT supervising the work and not being experienced enough, or caring enough, to anticipate the problem; the sheetrockers for being careless and doing shoddy work; the HVAC contractor for not going back and insuring that all drain lines were in place before firing up the AC units for the first time.

BTW ... this is a common rookie mistake. And one, as a builder responsible for supervising ALL work, I confess to having made myself. But most good builder's only do it once ... at least so far! :)

As about as competent as the fashionable, three day stubble that goes along with the territory can make them.

[Mark & Juanita]

In our case, the condensate pipe was not covered by sheetrock, it was just sticking out the wall; an equivalent attach point on the bathroom sink drain was similarly setting there. The only problem was the intervening air gap of about 8 inches and an elbow that, for some reason, the water failed to follow instead of flowing out the pipe onto the vanity floor.

Absolutely. Builder went to great lengths outlining their quality construction and attention to detail. Seems like that's kind of a big detail to miss. If I were a builder, I'd have a checklist of items prior to closing out a site. Verifying A/C drainage would be one of the things on that checklist.

In this particular case, I can't fault the sheetrockers

Yep

This was a name-brand builder, they should not have made this mistake. OTOH, all of the AC units in the whole neighborhood failed multiple times in the immediate years after the warranties ran out. Turns out the builder went with the low bidder (explains the hook-up issue) who had purchased a warehouse full of closed out A/C units and who failed to match inside and outside units during installation. Installer just went to the warehouse, grabbed a compressor and condenser and took to the job site. Builder narrowly avoided a class-action lawsuit (which I normally abhor, but in this instance was certainly justifiable) because the organizing group was collecting legal funding around Christmas time.

[Mark & Juanita]

This particular instance included proper certification of the building site as well. That particular area of TX is one with a high concentration of clay that swells and shrinks with moisture content. The builder had filled the back yards into an erosion channel to make larger backyards and had failed to adequately assure the stabilization of the fill, thus the later occurrences of backyards sliding away into the creekbed.

... snip

I'll agree with the latter statement. This just confirmed that the amount of intrusion we already have is pretty much useless -- we certainly don't need more and I wouldn't come close to advocating that.

... snip

It's not just building, it seems to be endemic to everything. Here, I am overjoyed when I have work done where it is right the first time. It is very seldom that this happens anymore, there's always something that is screwed up; and it's not because I am being overly particular -- this is big things, like the fact the new brakes on the F-150 just plain locked up when applying any pressure to them after a brake job. Multiple other examples abound. I don't know if it is an entitlement mentality that people think they are deserving of good compensation despite the quality of their work, or something else, but quality work seems to have become a rare commodity.

That should be the last line of defense; people should have enough pride in their work to do it correctly regardless of whether someone is watching. [Yeah, I'm an idealist]