Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another quality tool down the crapper !!!
If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or else you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for comparison.
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to China is that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at the lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing business in China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor - and for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental regulation.
More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality steel. (How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture products in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want to, wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep their surroundings clean.)
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor. While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in Korea and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The days of making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.
Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered. (better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet. One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Exactly. Now that our country has used most of its cheap natural resources it has to compete with the rest of the world. Blaming others countries for doing a job at a reasonable price is not going to fix our problems. Or we could tax the living day lights out of imported products like imported cars. I learned that the 90 Acura that my wife and I bought in 1989 would have been 30% cheaper with out the import tax added.
Among my travels I have visited every province in China, and speak Mandarin and Cantonese. I had started to think I was the only one who recognized that China produces low end AND high end products. The product specs define what components are used, and a skilled worker in a Chinese production facility is almost certainly a more skilled and experienced worker than the counterpart in a U.S. plant, but probably also better educated, as well. You only have to go into some of the U.S. factories -- especially in the SE U.S., to realize how little education or work ethic "our" workers have.
Side thoughts -- (a) if Chinese tools are so bad, how is it that Chinese wood products -- especially wood carved products -- or of such exceptional quality?
(b) Perhaps it's a lack of government (e.g., OSHA) interference. The Heritage Foundation a few years ago found that in terms of economic freedom, a Chinese special administration area placed first (MOST free!) in the world. Singapore was second. The U.S. placed fourth.
(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese product?
(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.
Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend that the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par with those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?
Speak for yourself. *Some* of the public, yes. Even *most* of the public, perhaps.
Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison labor.
There's a lot more to it than just assembly-line work. Somebody has to maintain the production machinery. Somebody has to inspect raw materials coming in, and finished products going out.
The company SWMBO works for recently started - and then abandoned - an effort to establish a subsidiary in China, to produce goods for use _in_China_, not for export. Among the reasons they abandoned the project was the inability of Chinese steel producers to consistently supply steel that met their specs. They have not had that problem at their U.S. plants. I can't imagine that their experience is unique.
And I am betting that you haven't been paying attention to where the screws you use are made. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've ever, in my life, twisted the head off of a screw that I know was made in the U.S. or Canada.
Yeah, right. I bet you drive a Yugo, and think that it's just as good as a Mercedes.
Just pointing out that there are *other* reasons for the low price of Chinese products besides the disparity in worker salaries. You apparently think that's the only reason, and that's just not true.
Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate and ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par with those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other Americans, you can't tell the difference.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...
So, as in any issue, the problems are much more complex than such simplistic descriptions or solutions...
I'll agree w/ most of the treatise except for the generalization that implies essentially no variance between high and low ends of the spectrum in both countries.
Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are no different in that regard than the US.
There is a definite problem in the US that political rhetoric gets in the way of solutions more than in controlled economies/governments. That this is wholly bad is a conjecture to which I'm not prepared to accede. (The form, not the result, that is).
Problem isn't the ethics, it's the trade distortion of essentially free labor.
Same problem in the US if one company were to be allowed the advantage of not paying their employees while their competitors weren't allowed the same opportunity.
Y'think? Especially as it applies to production or factory labor? Or is the whole skewed by the office worker's "productivity?" Isn't it all GNP $ / workforce #?
How do they figure an item manufactured in China or any other place? No question that the value added (or just taken) favors the importer/distributor. Have a feeling that this may be some damned lies converted to statistics.
I am not a big HF fan but I occasionally buy small tools from them. However I bought a $99 mortiser from them several years ago - mainly on a whim. Surprise - It cut's square holes well and the chisels have taken several sharpenings quite well. The hold-down mechanism sucked but I have worked around that with some mods and clamps. Probably won't be my last mortiser but it fills the bill for now.
Also, an aquaintance entered the trim carpentry a couple of years ago after being laid off from the aircraft industry. Starting on a shoestring, he purchased HF brad and finish nailers - both for about $100. Figured they would get him going until he could afford better. His only complaint after two years is they won't wear out and he takes a lot of crap from his peers. (A few of whom now own HF nailers as "back ups".)
Anyone can build crap and unfortuanately we are seeing quite a bit of it coming from "domestic manufacturers". Anyone compared a 30 year old Unisaw with a new one lately? It ain't crap but it isn't what it used to be - just
3-4 times the price. That is why products like the Grizzly 1023 series saws are so popular.
One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of intellectual property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you do not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .
Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.
Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of the same quality of one made in Japan.
I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet (made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal quality - what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and the execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .
Apparently you're unaware that much of the Chinese prison labor force is composed of political prisoners, not actual criminals. If that doesn't bother you, it should.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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