Panel Saw Experiences?

[Frank Drackman]

Thanks to all for the replies. When I'm in my own shop, and need to cut a full-size sheet of plywood, I lay some 2x4s on the floor, measure 1/4 oversize and clamp a straightedge, cut with a hand-held circular saw, then re-cut to final dimensions on my table saw (which is equipped with outfeed and side extensions). But I'm undeniably anal about woodworking and the extra time required to go through all those steps is of no consequence to me. And I know how to place the

2x4s on the floor to support the sheet without pinching the blade. I see all sorts of opportunities for disaster if we put people who may have never held a circular saw before in that situation. My very next order of business is to build outfeed and side extensions for the group's existing table saw. But it still will be a barely tolerable solution. The extension tables will take up a lot of much needed room and the available horizontal surface will immediately become a catch- all for every tool, screw and coffee cup in the place. I still think a panel saw will be the safest and most productive alternative. Plus, it can live against a wall and won't take up so much space.

I spent most of Friday building a proper stand for their compound miter saw. When I arrived on the scene a few weeks ago, the miter saw was on the floor, and they would stack scraps on the floor to hold up the dangling ends of the board. Now, with 4 feet of table on either side of the saw and a full-length fence, we can clamp a stop to the fence instead of measuring and marking each piece. There are so many opportunities for improvement that it's hard to know where to start.

DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle

Boy are they lucky to have you involved! It seems that the key is to get them to understand the potential dangers and low quality results from doing things the wrong way and the rewards from doing things the correct way.

I recently started to help the theater department at the local high school and can't even get them to drill pilot holes for screws. The culture passed down from class to class is strange. The kids seem to develop pride from being able to do something the wrong way even if the right way is easier to achieve and produces much better results.

[John Barry]

Simple, cheap method that works great for me:

Build open support frame of tubafors screwed together more than an inch away from edge, to make an open matrix about 4' x 8'.

Drop 4' x 8' sheet onto frame.

Set up straight edge for cutting an edge "really" straight, if it matters, with circ-saw set to just cut through sheet. Then set up straight edge for subsequent cuts. Main challenge here is sequence of cuts to harvest most of sheet. Simple factory-made guide of (2) 4'+ lengths works great.

Resting tubafore support frame on tailgate of p/u and horses also works great for breaking down sheets while unloading, and minimizes damage.

Only incremental expense is a few tubafores and screws. Meanwhile, all extremities are full-length. No amputations/kickbacks yet.

John

[Bill]

That is correct. The saw only moves vertically. I think the total movement is The platten is rotated 90 degrees and locked in place for long rip cuts. For full 8' sheets, you will need to buy the feed rail extensions. For ripping, I've found it's best to have two people (but not necessary). One to feed and one to extract. However, you can feed a sheet part way, move to the other side and pull the sheet the rest of the way through. I typically handled up to 1/2 inch sheets myself, and asked for help with 3/4 inch sheets for ease of handling.

Again, accuracy depends on setup. The bottom rail extensions have adjustable feed rollers, that need to be aligned with a long straight edge. If I remember correctly, the feed rollers on the main rail were pre-set. I didn't check the accuracy very often, but in general, the accuracy appeared to be within 1/16 inch or better.

The only drawback is that the crosscut stop only goes to about 60 inches, so if you are using the stop to cut a piece longer than that, you need to do a little math.

The picture shown here:

includes the rail extensions (as well as all of the other accessories, I believe).

Bill

[Bill]

I think most of the posters are missing the point. The OP is asking if a panel saw is the best solution for his situation, not the cheapest.

I've used a table saw, circular saw with straight edge and home made jigs and none of them beat the panel saw for dealing with full size sheets of plywood. I will admit that I've never used a commercial table saw with massive infeed and outfeed tables though.

Our scene shop workers consisted of people with many, many years of experience to those with no experience at all. With minimal training, just about anyone could be taught to use the panel saw safely.

I never felt comfortable letting people with little experienc use the table saw or circular saw. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I never experienced a kickback with the panel saw.

Another thing of note is that we have a power miter saw fixed in place for cutting board stock. We have the luxury of having a 30 foot bench with the saw fixed in the middle. Again, much safer and quicker than a circular saw.

Bill

[todd]

Exactly. Many, despite evidence to the contrary, also seem to have it in their heads that experienced woodworkers are doing this work. Though it would be nice, I have no real need for a panel saw because I just don't cut enough volume of sheet goods to make it worth the cost. The OP talks about cutting 40 sheets at a time.

todd

[DonkeyHody]

Thank you for correctly interpreting my perhaps ill-phrased question. I know all about the cheap solutions. Trouble is, they take too much time and don't reduce the risk significantly. I've been cutting plywood with a circular saw and straightedges for decades, but this high-volume operation needs a quicker method that will yeild accurate results and can be used by semi-skilled volunteers. I'm already convinced that a panel saw, or some other very similar machine, is what we need. What I wanted to know was about the Milwaukee in particular, and also if there are other similar machines I should look into. Thanks again for your help.

DonkeyHody "While I know you understood what you thought I said, you fail to realize that what you heard was not what I meant."

[bridgerfafc]

well, if they have the funds and the space, a panel saw would be of great service to them. good panel saws are expensive, though. perhaps if there is a metal shop at the school they might be interested in taking on building one as a class project?

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

This is Usenet. I asked a question about a specific mortising machine, and was told to use a plunge router.

I agree that the panel saw is the best solution, if space and funds are available.

[J T]

Sun, Dec 23, 2007, 5:31am (EST-3) [e-mail] (Old=A0Guy) doth sayeth: Their power saw of choice was a miter saw. I was impressed. It's a lot safer than a circular saw or a table saw, and the design practically prevents kick backs.

I consider my mitre saw one of my scarier tools. I can just see turning a bunch like those descrived with miter saws, and lopping fingers off right and left.

It's no problem cutting along a line with a circular saw, if you don't opt to use a straightedge. "Ge doctore, I was just trying to cut that really small piee." Probably they wouldn't do much better with a panel saw, proably want to cut some odd shapes. If they freehand panels on a contractor saw they sure can't be much concerned with really accurate cuts. I'd say the safest way would be a couple of circular saws, and a couple (or more) dedicated cutters. Or get 'em a few sabre saws and turn 'em loose, I've never heard of anyone getting a critical injury with one of those - of course there's always a first time. And make bloody damn sure they con't screw with any circular saw guards. Me, I'd probably bail, and to Hell with 'em all.

JOAT My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory is not as sharp as it used to be.

[toolman946 via CraftKB.com]

I admire your diplomatic approach to joining this group. No one responds well to the "new kid on the block" trying to boss people around or becoming a "safety Nazi"! Your skills have obviously been recognized and I'm sure you're correct in concluding that they view you as their "technical expert".

There've been many good suggestions (some not so good) about equipment and techniques so I'll simply add that I think a good quality panel saw would make a fine "investment" for many years to come. May I also suggest an idea taken from the pages of The Home Depot approach to equipment. I work parttime at a local store and no one can operate any of the equipment (saws, cutters, forklifts, etc.) without first completing an equipment orientation and safety training course. Their policy is driven for liability reasons.

May I suggest that you, as the expert, develop a brief and simple orientation course for each of the tools in the inventory. The intent wouldn't be to teach people how to design and build things... but simply to ensure they know the correct and safe operation of a power tool. Whoever is the overall "boss" of the program would readily see the value of adopting a policy requiring everyone to have this training before using any potentially dangerous power tool. Maintaining a log showing who's been trained would be a good thing, too. The orientation would minimize the potential for personal injury or damage to the equipment and it would go a long way to indemnifying the organization (and its members) from a lawsuit.

Good on 'ya for helping in the community and passing on your skills and knowledge to the younger generation. After all... they'll be building our coffins!

Michael

[DonkeyHody]

One thing I failed to make clear is that these are NOT high school kids building sets. The dads are building sets while the kids practice. But many of the other dads are quite a bit younger than I am.

I'm amazed both with what they've been able to accomplish in building sets, and with the total lack of organization or any systematic approach. The guy who is overall in charge of making it happen is an architech. He's mostly an artsy type with good people skills, but he's not into tools & such. He confessed the other day that he doesn't own a drill.

There are huge gaps in the group's tool inventory. Those gaps are usually filled by tools the volunteers bring from home. I don't mind taking my tools up there for my own use, or under my watch, but I treasure my tools and I'm not willing to leave them for others to use while I'm not there.

Most of the group had never used a quality jig saw before and were amazed at the performance and smoothness of my Porter Cable.

There's lots of other tools I'd like them to buy besides the panel saw, but I think the panel saw would help prevent that accident that's just waiting to happen.

DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle

[Upscale]

"DonkeyHody"

I may have missed it, but are you not going to instruct them on safe tool use? And, as soon as possible? You seem preoccupied with them buying a panel saw, but they have they're safety hazards too, just not as many as a table saw. Why haven't you yet spoken up within your theatre group about your concerns about safety? Either you're too shy to do so for some reason or hesitant for another reason. What is it? I'm not attacking you, reciting what seems to be happening.

[DonkeyHody]

I did point out to them the dangers of crosscutting against the fence. I have stated to the leadership that I think wrestling full- size sheets across an undersize table saw with no outfeed table is unecessarily dangerous. But until we have a better way, I'm not going to attempt to stop grown adults from doing something just because I consider it risky. If I were in charge of them, it would be different, but I'm not. Next you'll want me to confront people who skydive, bungie jump and jaywalk. I'm not taking on that responsibility, and if you see it as a character weakness, I can live with it.

DonkeyHody "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." - Mark Twain

[toolman946 via CraftKB.com]

I hope you won't think I'm bragging when I say that I own or owned just about every tool you can imagine. And to present my credentials I'll tell you that I was a licensed welder, machinist and gunsmith before pursuing knowledge and skill development in the building, electronics and computer trades. I've owned a number of different businesses and have achieved a measure of noteriety (within my neck of the woods, anyway) as a world champion athlete in a shooting sport. I'm told that I'm a fairly reasonable and learned guy.

But...my suggestion to you draws upon 32 years in law enforcement (I'm currently a Detective Sergeant in command of a specialty unit). Over the years I've investigated many, many industrial and residential accidents and have witnessed both the physical carnage and the legal ramifications from these types of events. Ask your insurance agent why your homeowner's policy includes a "slip and fall" clause to protect you in the event a trespasser becomes injured while on your property.

North American culture... and more importantly, our courts... have created the notion that we have a right to be protected from our own stupidity. If I get hurt... someone else has to pay, regardless of how stupid my actions were!

If you take one of your tools to use at the jobsite and someone uses it without your knowledge or permission and hurts themselves... in a lawsuit you could be found "negligent" for not securing the dangerous tool from another person's access. And it could cost 'ya.

If you take one of your tools to use at the jobsite and allow another person to use it with your permission but without ensuring that they know how to use it safely, and they get hurt... you could be found "grossly negligent" and it could cost 'ya... big time! The same holds true for the organization and its principals, directors, directly involved members, and so on.

But don't just take my word for it... check out the meaning of "negligence" and "gross negligence" with a lawyer and ask him or her about civil liability as well. I'm sure that the artsy fartsy architect will understand... as he's no doubt aware of his liability risks in the event that a building he designs should fall on someone's head.

I'm not trying to scare you... I'm offering my opinion to help you, based upon my experience and based upon the horror stories I personally know about. It would be a shame to lose all your tools... your house, your car/truck, etc. for lack of a few minutes taken to cover 'yer butt!

Geez... did I say all that out loud?!? I didn't mean to climb up on a soap box... I guess I would just hate to see a good guy like you get hooped!

All the best and good luck to you.

Michael

[Upscale]

There's a considerable difference between people who engage in risky activities for the thrill of it and those who are just trying to enjoy themselves in friendly interaction like your theatre group. You didn't hesitate for one second in stating your concern here in this newsgroup obviously because you feel the people here would be more likely to support what you are thinking. That doesn't appear to be the case within your theatre group however.

If was in your place, I'd speak up and present graphic examples of what they're doing wrong and suggest how it could be fixed. All that could happen is that I might be temporarily booed a bit, but then it would be over. Consider however, if they took you seriously and acted on your concerns.

Just as obviously, these are only my opinions. My personality usually dictates that I should act if I think I can make a positive contribution to some situation, at least when it comes to my friends.

[pzi]

I started a similar thread few weeks back but had as much luck getting some useful advice as you so far - just a few replies not really on the subject - of what panel saw to buy? I see that there is a trend here to suggest straight edge and rotary saw approach or track systems like Festool or Eurekazone. I have just bought the Eurekazone system and after spending some $500 for the saw and router attachments I see that the key (as I thought) is the method of holding the 4x8 sheet and consistently making perpendicular cuts. No straight edge or track system will provide that

- you need a panel saw - end of story. For my shop the other key feature of the panel saw over the other horizontal approach is the small space that is required to slice the big panel. The vertical placement will save have of my shop floor space.

As far as panel saw manufacturers I see two choices: Milwaukee or Trax. I think that both of them come to the same price of ~$2000 after you include extensions to support 4x8 panels and dust collection. The advantage of Trax is that it has router attachment and is powder coated.

-Peter

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Sadly, I had some similar thoughts.

I do volunteer work, where I'll never loan my power tools to anyone who I haven't developed total respect for their skills and sensibilities. I turn down LOTS of requests at jobs to use my tools to make a quick cut, or drive a few nails...

I'm not even sure I would select a specific panel saw for the school to buy, or install it. I would simply point them to a knowledgeable local dealer, who can sell it and set it up.

[J. Clarke]

There are at least three shop made panel saw designs out there, one from Rockler (which I believe was originally published in Woodworkers' Journal) and two from Shop Notes, that if labor is free might be significantly cheaper than the Milwaukee or Trax. I've not used any of them so have no idea how well they work, but might be worth a look. I believe the Rockler and the one from Shop Notes #4 require that one move the panel for horizontal cuts while the one from Shop Notes #88 has a moving carriage.

The Rockler plans and parts kit can be ordered from

?id=68xoDkQ2UAUC&pg=PP15&lpg=PP15&dq=shop+built+panel+saw&source=web&ots=Mv9oVp6Bn-&sig=xnxtqXg1_GmPMOItSDtEN0OdnrM#PPT19,M1 has a partial copy of the article in which it was described (at least I _think_ it's the same tool).

The Shopnotes #4 design can be had from

and the hardware kit from 's a video of the one from Shop Notes 88 in action at but no plans or hardware kit as yet. If you don't have issue 88 you can get it in bound volume 15 from

[DonkeyHody]

While I recognize the truth in what you say, I simply refuse to live my life that way. Much of the joy I find in life comes from finding ways to help others. I'm not going to let a few bad apples rob me of that joy.

In the biblical story of the Good Samaritan, the Priest and the Levite were doubtless afraid, but they weren't excused by their fear.

DonkeyHody "Better trust all, and be decieved, And weep that trust and that decieving, Than doubt one soul that if believed, Had blessed one's life with true believing. Oh in this mocking world too fast The doubting fiend o'retakes our youth. Better to be cheated to the last Than lose the blessed hope of truth. - Frances Anne Kemble

[Tom Veatch]

IIRC, the OP indicated that budget wasn't a problem (wish I were in that position) so a purchased panel saw is probably where he wants to go. But I built the SN#4 panel saw and have been extremely pleased with the results.

It is correct that horizontal cuts require rotating the saw 90 degrees in the carriage and sliding the panel. As a result, I find myself using the straight edge/circular saw technique for cuts longer than

4'. I'll have to take a look at the SN#88 version with an idea toward replacing the SN#4 version.

Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA