Panel Saw Experiences?

[DonkeyHody]

I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500. Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle

[Frank Drackman]

This sounds like a job for Festool.

I recommend one of their circular saws with the appropriate length guide rails. Their large multi-function table would also help.

[J T]

Sat, Dec 22, 2007, 5:14pm (EST-3) [e-mail] (DonkeyHody) doth query: Question is, Is this the saw I need?

The saw that YOU need? Thought is was for the school? They would be paying for it, right?

Probably better to buy the ply at Lowes and have them cut it on their panel saw. If those people are as inept as you claim, it would take a full-time keeper to keep them from hurting someone. That gonna be you? And, if it is you, who's gonna do it after your 4 years? I'd think a circular sa and straightedge would answer the problem better than a panel saw, cheaper, nd probably safer too. Actually, all they'd need is a straight line to follow, and could probably do without the streight edge.

Out of curiosity, you saw them using the saw like that, and just let them proceed?

JOAT My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory is not as sharp as it used to be.

[Lew Hodgett]

RE: Subject

SFWIW, have had very good luck with an 18VDC DeWalt unit.

Not having to screw around with a power cord in a panel saw application is a BIG plus IMHO.

YMMV.

BTW, not stuck with DeWalt, but it does a good job.

Lew

[Greg G]

Errr... Lew, I think they are talking about a panel saw. Usually a horizontal apparatus / wall mounted thing you straddle a large sheet onto and it has a track guided saw which cuts the panels to size - without requiring the ability required to mark or cut a straight line with a circular saw. Machinery replaces the non-existent skill.

As for me, I'd opt for a straightedge and a circular saw. And if they only cut a few pieces per session, perhaps a cordless one. But I'm a cheapskate.

Greg G.

[Lew Hodgett]

Oh, you mean that piece of clap-trap you find at the Borg, I stand corrected.

Guess I always associated small circular saws and "panel saw" as one and the same.

I'm with you; however, I become very spoiled.

Not having to screw around with power cords is a very BIG plus for me.

It no longer is a luxury, it's a necessity.

Lew

[DonkeyHody]

OK, I guess I should have said we, or even they. Right now, I'm the only one pushing the panel saw idea. The show choir would be funding the purchase.

You don't understand. So far, we've been through about 40 sheets of plywood. No way the borg is going to cut all that into the gajillion different sizes of panels we need. Besides, some of the stuff is designed on the fly. We don't even know what all the dimensions are until we build the prototype.

Yes, I "let" them. Though they aren't woodworkers, some of them have been doing this for four years, and I'm the new kid on the block. I wasn't appointed boss of the group, although they are coming to recognize me as sort of a technical expert. I didn't take on the job as the Safety Nazi for the group. I'd rather change the group culture than alienate them by telling them they're stupid. I want to show them a way to do it safely while maintaining the production they have now. And running the sheets across the table saw is undeniably faster than marking and clamping a straightedge for each cut.

This activity has been a paradigm shift for me too. At home in my shop, I work at my own pace and it takes as long as it takes. If it takes me three times as long to make a cut, I don't care as long as it's dead-on accurate. These folks are under a perpetual time crunch. There's always a deadline looming, and the sets have to be ready because the show must go on.

=A0

[RicodJour]

I bought a Safety Speed Cut H-5 panel saw at an auction for $200 some years back. I didn't use it nearly as much as I thought I would, so I sold it on eBay some years later and quadrupled my money. I had it set up so my sheet stock was stored vertically, of course, behind the saw and I could slide out a sheet and slide it onto the saw to make my cuts. It kept handling to a minimum, but it still wasn't the ticket for me.

For your application I'd agree with some of the other replies - the standard straightedge rip guide used with a circular saw.

make the base plywood wide enough so I can use both sides of the rip guide - one side for each side of the circular saw so I can run the saw on either side of the fence. They're cheap, you can make several so several people can be cutting at once if necessary, they take up no room to speak of and they minimize/eliminate splintering if that's any concern.

R

[todd]

I will have to disagree with many of the respondents up to now. If you (or the choir) have the money to do so, I would go ahead and purchase the panel saw. Unfortunately, I don't have experience with either of the ones you mention. IMO, turning several people with questionable safety practices loose with a bunch of handheld circular saws just isn't a good idea. Not that a panel saw is 100% safe, mind you, but I think it's a better choice. Circular saws and straightedge guides are great (I have one) around the shop for a few sheets, but if you're cutting 40 at a time, I really think you're into panel saw territory.

todd

[Upscale]

I know you said their budget was generous, but I think you should be approaching this from a different perspective. Just because a panel saw might be used doesn't mean that accidents can't happen. Careless or inexperienced people on a cheap table saw translates to the same careless or inexperienced people on a panel saw. Give an inexperienced or careless person a chance and they will find a way to hurt themselves every time.

Print out a half dozen graphic tablesaw amputations and take them in with you. Then sit them down and instruct them on proper tablesaw usage. You might suggest upgrading to a better tablesaw, but with the addition of some infeed and outfeed tables (assuming there's enough workspace available), that 'generous' budget might be applied to some other needy area in the theatre.

Apparently, you're the 'technical expert' on site now. Put that status to use and save someone a painful, terrifying injury, not to mention the shock that will go through the rest of the group when it happens. As well, you'd be struggling with the guilt for not doing this instruction the rest of your life. Make the most important contribution to this theatre group that you can.

[Lee Michaels]

If safety is a concern and a generous budget is available, how about a Sawstop?

[montyhp]

I have read the entire thread. I think a panel saw is one of the safest ways to go. I have always wanted one and may take the home made route (Search Rockler.com for "panel saw plan"). I am always happy when I can solve a problem by woodworking!

Montyhp

[Old Guy]

Dear Donkey,

(Always wanted to say that)

Kudos to you for your support of youth activities. They all need more folks like you.

Another parallel idea.

I had a class that did some work with Habitat for Humanity, which makes a habit of working with unskilled volunteers for construction.

Their power saw of choice was a miter saw. I was impressed. It's a lot safer than a circular saw or a table saw, and the design practically prevents kick backs.

A panel saw (frame type) could be made too, I think I've seen numerous shop tips about how to do it, and I'm sure would be safer than the present lash up.

Another thought would be to identify the panel saw as a "SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS WEAPON" and allow only properly safety briefed (oops, the mental picture of that isn't what I meant) persons to operate it. Lesser lights could cut the plywood pieces to length, and assemble them.

Merry Christmas

Old Guy

[DonkeyHody]

Thanks to all for the replies. When I'm in my own shop, and need to cut a full-size sheet of plywood, I lay some 2x4s on the floor, measure 1/4 oversize and clamp a straightedge, cut with a hand-held circular saw, then re-cut to final dimensions on my table saw (which is equipped with outfeed and side extensions). But I'm undeniably anal about woodworking and the extra time required to go through all those steps is of no consequence to me. And I know how to place the

2x4s on the floor to support the sheet without pinching the blade. I see all sorts of opportunities for disaster if we put people who may have never held a circular saw before in that situation. My very next order of business is to build outfeed and side extensions for the group's existing table saw. But it still will be a barely tolerable solution. The extension tables will take up a lot of much needed room and the available horizontal surface will immediately become a catch- all for every tool, screw and coffee cup in the place. I still think a panel saw will be the safest and most productive alternative. Plus, it can live against a wall and won't take up so much space.

I spent most of Friday building a proper stand for their compound miter saw. When I arrived on the scene a few weeks ago, the miter saw was on the floor, and they would stack scraps on the floor to hold up the dangling ends of the board. Now, with 4 feet of table on either side of the saw and a full-length fence, we can clamp a stop to the fence instead of measuring and marking each piece. There are so many opportunities for improvement that it's hard to know where to start.

DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle

[Bill]

I purchased the Milwaukee panel saw for the scene shop for our local community theater. We used it to cut anything from 1/4 inch luan to

3/4 inch decking ply.

Not only does it make cutting full sheets of ply much easier, it's much faster and safer than trying to wrestle those heavy sheets up onto a table saw. Everyone who had an experience with this saw was amazed at how much easier it was to use.

I use both the panel saw and straight edge/circular saw for cutting plywood and can only say that when building a set with lots of plywood cutting, the panel saw wins hands down.

Two points: Take your time on setup to get it as accurate as possible and purchase the mid support rail. I didn't do the second and regretted it because you have to bend down a lot when cutting narrow strips to length.

HTH Bill

[DonkeyHody]

Bill, You're the guy I've been looking for! From the photos, it appears that the Milwaukee saw doesn't move horizontally, that you push the material through it to make cuts longer than 4 feet, is that correct? Is the bed long enough to rip an 8 foot piece accurately, or does it require skill to keep it straight?

DonkeyHody "If you think you've made it foolproof, you've obviously underestimated the ingenuity of the fool."

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Same here. I cut on the floor, on my knees, on 2" blue foam. With a good blade, the thing goes a long time. With two batteries, I can't cut fast enough to fall behind the charger. On the other hand, a very nice surround (infeed / outfeed table), as well as a proper shop-made splitter, could be built to hold the jobsite saw that could make ripping long sheets easy and much safer.

I also like the previously mentioned ideas of watching auctions for a good panel saw cheap!

As far as crosscutting with the fence... That's where Donkey Hody comes in with some OJT!

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Luckily, they have you.

You never know, you may save a serious injury and/or inspire a future woodworker.

[jbc77]

Go cheap and save the money for educational materials the school really needs:

[DonkeyHody]

The show choir is self-funded. It does not compete with education for money. The director is paid a salary by the school, but ticket sales and fundraisers bring in the rest. Oh, and the parents of each kid pay an unholy monthly fee for the privilege of participation.

DonkeyHody "We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."