Other than ease of adjustments, appearance, and "cachet", why does an expensive plane work better?

If you polish up your plane's blade (iron, right?) at the correct angle, to 8,000 grit, why does an expensive plane garner such praise for it's cutting ability? Isn't how the plane cuts due to it's flatness, and other tuning parameters rather than whether or not it's made from an exotic wood or has brass inlay? WHAT is it about a better plane that makes it work better than a cheaper brand? Assuming that the user applies the same careful attention to tuning the cheaper plane.

I already know about the "pride of ownership", and all that jazz, but on a purely scientific basis, why do the pricier planes cut better? Please assume the SAME blade, honed to the nth degree when explaining the difference the plane itself makes. Any chance that the "break the bank" plane is perceived as better because it's owner lavishes extra attention to setting it up properly, whereas a cheap Stanley gets the once-over?

I'm not disputing any facts; just trying to understand what to look for when shopping for planes. Is the best bang for the buck below L-N, like Veritas?

Anyone tired of discussing this topic ( I know it's been dealt with before) please by adult enough to just ignore the thread. Thank you!

dave

Reply to
Bay Area Dave
Loading thread data ...

Reply to
Sweet Sawdust

Because it works better.

Because it keeps working better for longer

Because it works equally well on the awkward stuff.

Get your hands on something good. Then you'll see.

One of my favourite and most-used planes is still my Veritas low-angle block. There's nothing magic about this, and it's not an expensive plane. Veritas just got all the bits right.

The design is right. They took the best adjuster design out there, and used it. OK, so it has twice as many parts, they're machined rather than stamped, and they need to be accurate for it to work at all (compared to a Bailey), but they're prepared to make it Right, despite the cost.

The iron has the best metallurgy they could find. OK, so my hand-forged arcana is probably just as good, and certainly has more "soul", but A2 steel makes good irons that last a long time between honings. And you can do it in a factory that churns out lots of them, all that work as well as the best, and more cheaply than hand work by an expert.

The fit of the parts is excellent (an obvious contrast to Stanley or Record). This increases machining costs; finish has to be better, accuracy has to be maintained more carefully, and any mis-machined bodies get scrapped, rather than sold as the "handyman line". As a result, I touch the adjuster on the Veritas and things move. They move where I want, by how much I want, and then they don't go any further. I can re-adjust this plane all day, depending on what I'm doing. When I used a #9 or #18 before, I'd keep one on the bench with a big mouth and one with a narrow mouth. Both worked well, but their adjustments were finicky and not something you'd want to change, lest they don't work so well afterwards without much effort.

Look at "Crown" tools. Rosewood and brass everywhere, look pretty and yet absolute rubbish to use.

Sure, you can pay silly money for tools. Rosewood alone gains you nothing. But there are tools out there that are worth more than the bargain basement, or even a good old Stanley refurbed from the eBay pile. A Bedrock will never be a Norris, because there's always going to be slop in the depth adjuster, and there's a sprung lever holding the iron down, not a screw you can set for a good hold that's yet still adjustable.

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Reply to
Andy Dingley

Trolling again? That new bandsaw of yours cuts the same as the scorned Delta if the blade's the same?

Real woodworkers know that repeatability, not one-time success is the measure of a good tool. Good looks are nice, too.

Reply to
George

Im no plane expert but here what i think, with the same iron on two different planes,from personal experience,i have two jointers plane a stanley 7 and a transitional,the transitional is longer but his ability to hold the iron is definetaly not as good as the other,which if you think about it,if your iron has any slop in it how can it cut as good as the other,the transitional is a good users plane,but the 7 is a much better plane, with the same iron, and the same flatness,and pretty much the same adjustments possible.Lie Nielson are definately great planes and expensive but they are Stanley reproduction made from better materials that were unaivalable 100 yrs ago, on the other hand veritas is taking the originals design and with research and development, improved the design.

Reply to
martin

First of all, I'm assuming you are talking about smoothers here.

If everything is set up exactly *perfectly*, you probably *can* get a cheap POS to perform as well as a L-N ... for a couple of passes ...

A better plane will have a better and thicker iron, so to begin with you'll need to upgrade your iron if you want it to hold an edge as long and be as resistant to chatter. A better plane will likely have a more solid bedding, which also helps negate chatter. (You may or may not be able to compensate for this on a cheap plane.) A better plane will likely have a more precise adjustment mechanism, which makes it easier to get the correct setting to start with, and to be able to do it repeatedly (sloppy yokes and excessive backlash are a royal PIA on a "precise" tool). A better plane may even have better ergonomics (Lee Valley's line is a good example of this), which makes the plane easier to use for extended periods of time.

IMHO, you cannot separate ease of adjustment, ergonomics, blade quality, bedding, etc., as they all go into making a smoother that performs well. If all you intend to do is to take one perfect shaving, then you could get by for less. If you intend to use your plane on a regular basis, and rely on it for giving you a surface that's free from tearout and ready for finishing, then all those elements come into play.

As for the question of the owner lavishing extra attention on the L-N versus the cheap Stanley, I've found just the opposite to be true. A L-N will actually make pretty decent shaving from the box with no more than a bit of honing to the iron. An old Stanley usually needs quite a bit of attention to get it to where it performs well. (And a new Stanley is probably a lost cause altogether.)

IMHO, the Veritas is the best value out there now. I have old Stanleys, and several L-N planes, but the Veritas (low-angle) smoother is the one I turn to most often. It's got the combination of solid bedding, a good iron, precise adjustment, flat sole, and excellent ergonomics; and all for a good price.

Chuck Vance

Reply to
Conan the Librarian

There really is no difference, Dave. The only difference is in the quality of the tool...i.e., how long the tool will last before its difficult to adjust, how often you need to resharpen, etc.

I have a $79 table saw that I use almost daily...and I've used it to build cabinets. Sure, there's a lot of features missing on it (originally, at least) that you see on a top-of-the-line name brand saw. And I do have a lot of jigs made for it. But, in the final analysis, it does an excellent job for me...and the quality is equal to anything else out there.

The same can be said for most tools...planes included.

Most of today's woodworkers can't even FUNCTION unless they have the very best that money can buy. The old timers simply made do with what they had...or even could build themselves.

Look at the excellent quality of some really old cabinetry. Simply amazing to me...and much with no power tools at all.

Even a very expensive plane...with a mediocre owner...will turn out shoddy work.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

I'm glad you like the Veritas, Andy, because that's the one I've been meaning to order from Lee Valley very soon. I passed on L-N at last weekends WW show due it being about $45 more than the Veritas. I just honed the blade on my little Stanley sub-miniature (hell, I don't know what it's really called) plane and got some curly shavings. Not sure that they were cottony, but it was fun to see the wood transformed so quickly... the plane I'm talking about probably didn't set me back more than $10 (new) and can hide in your hand. It is a true PITA to set the blade depth. When I spend REAL money I want something that's easy to adjust so I get the depth just right. I take it the Veritas low angle block plane will work well for shooting miters?

dave

Andy Dingley wrote: snip

Reply to
Bay Area Dave

Chuck, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Your now famous "full-width, translucent, cottony-soft shaving" phrase has stuck with me! I'm eager to join the ranks of Neanders, at least on a part-time basis, to share in the joy! :) Now the Veritas you mentioned here is the larger low angle, correct? NOT the $89 low angle block plane?

dave

C>

Reply to
Bay Area Dave

George, not trolling. I value the wisdom of SOME of the Wreckers and am not afraid to ask about things I know little about. Your statement (in the form of a rhetorical question) restates MY question that if the blade's the same, will a "better" plane cut better. I already appreciate the nicer fit/finish, adjust ability of a superior product, but I posted the question to find out if anyone could quantify what makes a "nicer" plane CUT better. Seems as though the answer is precisely the fact that it can be set and hold an adjustment precisely. Lack of chatter, etc. Kinda like when the BS blade is held properly by the guides of a well tuned BS. The fit and finish just adds to the overall enjoyment of the tool, but the wood being cut on it could care less. But I care; to a point. I can't go "whole hog" for the most expensive tool in it's category. My pockets aren't that deep.

dave

George wrote:

Reply to
Bay Area Dave

Good, sounds as if you're beginning to figure out that tools come in grades, and what you require is based as much on your skill and patience as the capability of the tool.

Now think ... with the same blade, did your new bandsaw cut better, or worse than the Delta which has been the standard of the world for fifty years, but which you seemed incapable of, and interminably obtuse about tuning? Think planes might be the same?

Oh yes, the "best" tool isn't necessarily the prettiest, but I have a feeling you knew that as well.

Think I hear something hitting the side of the boat....

Reply to
George

ah, George, you didn't have the EXACT POS BS that was delivered to my shop. I had a previous Delta, which was FINE! Don't you get it? Delta and I gave up trying to make a silk purse from a cow's ear and I got a refund. Do a Google search for BS vibration and see what saw comes up!

Do you think you could once in a while act civilized instead of so antagonist?

dave

George wrote:

snip

snip

Reply to
Bay Area Dave

Cool. You and Mike both have the same plane and give it 2 thumbs up! I'm gonna order it as soon as I get an updated Lee Valley catalog so I peruse the latest and greatest before placing my order.

If I get the small low angle block plane later on, is it so small that it would be silly to install the wooden ball and handle set? Do you have that plane too?

dave

C> Bay Area Dave wrote:

Reply to
Bay Area Dave

Yep, the one I was talking about is their "low-angle smoother". To tie in with your other post asking about the adjustable mouth: That is something I forgot when I was talking about what makes it my most-used smoother. It makes it a snap to get the plane set up for the lightest cut and smallest mouth possible. Set the iron depth and close the mouth up as much as you want.

Also, here is another case where a well-made plane makes a difference. The tolerances have to be pretty tight for that sliding toe-piece. A poorly-made plane would likely have some slop which could cause the plate to misalign slightly right in front of the iron. This could cause problems when trying to set the mouth for a tiny opening.

It could also allow for some side-to-side gaps which could allow "crumbs" to get picked up and possibly ding the work as they were dragged across the surface.

Chuck Vance

Reply to
Conan The Librarian

If you take two planes with the same cutting geometry then the differences would be due to differences in precision, mass, and blade metalurgy. A lack of precision leads to the blade being able to move which can lead to chatter and other maladies that would effect the quality of cut. For example, a well tuned Bailey is still a fairly imprecise instrument compared to a well executed Norris; mainly due to design. Does it make any difference in use? Maybe, maybe not - depends on the board.

Reply to
Steve Wilson

Let's see if I've got this right: "There really is no difference ... The only difference is in the QUALITY [emphasis mine] of the tool"?

Leaving aside the question of whether that particular statement even makes sense, as someone who uses planes extensively in all of his woodworking, ease of adjustment and quality of tool steel (longlasting edge) are very important differences. As well as bedding of the iron, reliability, repeatability, and ergonomics.

So is the quality of the tool equal, or have you figured out a way to do decent work *despite* the tool?

Have you actually used a modern plane from Stanley versus one of the higher-end planes (or even an old Stanley for that matter)? I'll tell you what, if you are really a glutton for punishment, I've got a Stanley #4 that's less than five years old. If you'd like, I'll pack it up and send it to you, so you can put it to use. But I'll guarantee you that if you can make it work it will be *despite* the plane, not because of it.

I'm not really sure where that puts me. I have a couple of home-made spokeshaves that are as good as any manufactured ones I own, and my little cocobolo smoother is a pretty fine little plane as well.

Of course, I also own some L-N planes, a few Veritas ones, and a bunch of old Stanleys. Guess what? They are all purchased with the idea of making my woodworking *more* *enjoyable*. And if I was doing this as a living, my tools would all be purchased with the idea of making it *more* *efficient*. And I wouldn't be purchasing shoddy planes in either case.

I agree completely. And what's ironic, is that I do almost 100% of my dimensioning, joinery, and surfacing by hand (i.e., with no power tools at all). Maybe that's why I can see the difference in poor quality planes (or hand tools in general) vs. decent ones.

Very insightful. None of us had ever thought about that possibility before.

So, how do you feel about Craftsman power tools?

Chuck Vance

Reply to
Conan The Librarian

Unless I have a good plane, I can't work fast enough that I can afford to eat ! Hobbies are great, but try to do it for an income and you really start to hurt over anything that slows you down, or needs fiddling with instead of just making product for you.

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Reply to
Andy Dingley

There's a big difference between rec.(recreational) woodworking, Andy...and woodworking to make a living.

And I'm not saying that there's not a difference in quality in ALL tools.

But I replied to Dave's post in light of our group's title.

To be quite honest, I very seldom use a plane. The last one I bought was about 40 years ago...and I haven't used it for a long time. Most of my projects preclude the need for a plane.

Unlike you, though, I don't do woodworking for a living. I *DO* use a router in my trade, though...almost 24hrs. a day. But it can't do any wood work. lol

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

You left out the i.e.

A plane is simply a tool to fix specific errors or problems in woodworking. I very seldom use a plane. There are other tools...or combination of tools...that can accomplish the same thing.

You want MY opinion?...or something to compliment your pre-conceived mindset?

No...I haven't. I haven't used a plane at all for quite a while. And the newest one I have is 40+ years old.

I got the impression Dave was interested in the difference between two NEW planes.

Sure sounds like yer an advanced woodworker.

But the discussion never WAS about poor quality planes...at least that wasn't Dave's question. Poor quality is poor quality...no matter what the cost.

See...ya learn somethin' new every day! lol

Which tools?...and which manufacturer?

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

Reply to
Trent©

I have a lot of Veritable brand tools in my shop, like the Veritable jointing fence I made out of angle iron.

The old timers and I would get along fine.

Reply to
Silvan

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.