OT: What are our schools learning

Page 3 of 6  
J. Clarke wrote:

You're jumping to conclusions. I pointed the student to the resources they needed to solve the problem (just 2 days ago). And the student's response was, and I quote, "It would be faster if you just showed me". Speed is not my main goal. What happens when the student has a more difficult problem and really Needs To Know how to read? It's better that the (college) student learn that he or she can solve problems on his or her own, and to build up a little confidence and skill by practicing doing so.

I'm not sure we have much of that occurring at the college level. Unfortunately, some students arrive so unprepared that their fate is practically sealed before they get there. Those are the ones that will make you sad.
Bill

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Bill wrote:

And I might add, *especially* for a computer science major taking a 3rd or 4th class in the discipline!
Bill
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Who said anything about "the college level"? I've never seen any assertion anywhere that US colleges are substandard. it's the K-12 schools that are crap.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Well, you wrote: >> Oh, you're one of those. If you don't see your job as showing the >> students how to do whatever the students are supposed to end up >> knowing how to do then why is anybody paying you to teach?
Thought you were talking about me.
Bill
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 07:45:05 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

Hey! We agree on something!
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Without the

Guess we're screwed.
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wrote:

Hopefully some will figure a way to continue.
But if your a citizen of the world, you are gonna get screwed.
So grab a beer and some popcorn and watch show.
Cause if you are sitting upon your ass....
Mark
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On 10/16/2010 10:40 AM, knuttle wrote:

on your part, or the result of a public school education that left you thinking "conclusive" was the correct word in that context?
If a parent is the only one with the responsibility for educating a child. you would have a point. That's what happens in home schooling, and as a result home schooled children on average tend to do better on standardized tests than their public schooled counterparts.
But if the parents, as most must, depend on the public school system, the brunt of the problem lies in incompetent teachers, an entrenched administrative bureaucracy, and in powerful teachers' unions that are more about protectin their union members' jobs and salaries than in educating the children. Just about any concerned parent could tell a horror story about having to cope with those problems when their child is assigned to a less than competent, concerned teacher.

That at least is true, as can be shown by the lack of correlation between the per-pupil spending in an area and the children's test scores.
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The bad news gets the press, and there are bad teachers. Those few are hardly indictative of the whole. In general, the tenured teacher is there because of devotion to the task of teaching. I heard a statistic this morning that "most" teachers leave the profession at about four years on the job. The teacher who's been 30 years in the classroom is more likely there because she/he _is_ effective, and rewarded by the success of her/his students' future endeavors.
As a groups, the precentage of "concerned, competent" teachers is likely to be higher than that of "concerned, competent" parents -- at least in terms of the parent's ability as an educator (and not just in school subjects).
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snipped-for-privacy@indy.rr.com says...

When someone offers them a real job.

Or couldn't get a better offer.

On what basis do you make this contention?
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Bullshit.
Also bullshit.

My wife's students' parents.
There is NO job more real or more important than teacher. This applies more widely than just in the classroom. Unconcered, incompetent, and just plain uninformed parents teach their children the same inverted "values."
This also explains the success of "reality" TV, the modern equivelent of "paying sixpence at the local madhouse to watch the lunatics howl at the walls.".
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What is sad is that those same attributes apply to many teachers too. Starting with my Civics teacher (in 1963) that taught us how to work in the summer at a resort and collect unemployment the rest of the year. The best way to dodge the draft was to go to school to become a teacher. Those draft dodgers became teachers and are now the senior administrative staff.
We have a bad combination of poor parents, students and teachers. No one wants to take responsibility for anything.
Having raised a couple of kids and grandkids, I've had to correct the papers from too many teachers over the years. There are some great ones, but there are too many poor ones in the batch.
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There fixed it for you.
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Robatoy wrote:

Sly reference to George Bush. I tell ya, if the worst thing that can be said about George Bush was that, in time of war, he joined the National Guard, he's going to heaven.
Admittedly, Bush was a "C" student. We don't know his successor's college average. Based on performance, I'd say Obama failed Lunch.
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Only partially true. Cheney.
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*snip*

Parents are essential to the process, and they have to know when to interfere and when to back off. As people get older, they tend to forget just what school is like (and how much of a drag it usually is). My parents let us take care of our business, and only got involved when they needed to.
Most students don't want to be at school anyway. They're herded like sheep into classrooms to be bored for 45 minutes at a time. The knowledge offered is usually very old and usually very repeated, and there's never any revelation in its disclosure. The hunger for knowledge is there, but it's never fed. I suspect many students are burned out of boring learning by the time they reach Sophmore year.
Teachers often forget how to be students by the time they're teachers. I've never been a teacher, but I've been a student. I can tell you this: We don't want to be bored with the same old drivel you've taught for the past 15 years. Sure, your lesson plan is done, and your tests are all written*, but when was the last time you learned something related to your field?
"The Office" should have much less power than it does at many schools. The teachers should have final authority (with veto power from the principal, of course) as to what students can do. When a kid finally does get sent to the office, he should be in explaining what happened to the principal and not sitting in a chair waiting for the "hour" to end.
* The last major update was in 1987, when the teacher switched from hand written to typed tests. "Washignton" has been misspelled ever since. *snip*
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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Puckdropper wrote:

Are you insane? What on earth has expertise in the field got to do with public school teaching?
In my state, one can be certified to teach high school mathematics without EVER having had a college course in calculus!
Years ago, I did some research and found the following were incompetent, by law, to teach in the public schools of my state: * All living Nobel Laureates * Virtually all winners of literary prizes (Pulitzer, Hugo, Edgar, Caldecot, Booker, etc.) * All living winners of the Fields Medal * Virtually all sitting federal judges
and so on.
The reason? They lacked the requisite education courses. Some could step in if they promised to reduce the deficiency by a certain number of semester hours per year, but still...
Does anyone doubt a retired Chemical Engineer could teach high school chemistry off the top of his head or a retired Civil Engineer teach plane geometry without cracking a book or an ex-RN teach biology?
Bah!
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"field" here refers to field of study or field of teaching. It's not important to have great expertise in it, but it is essential to learn something new every once in a while. Too many teachers seem to teach the same thing over and over without either thinking about it or learning any more about what they're teaching.

Sure, you don't need to know the next level to teach the current one. It is essential, however, not to close your mind once you've gained the ability to teach at the current level.

Sometimes the law looks for solutions in the wrong places. Other times, the people it excludes are just the people you want excluded. Just because a fellow can tell a good story doesn't mean he's qualified to explain the structure of a sentence or explain the symbolism in someone else's.

I do doubt it. In teaching, presenting the information in a way that can be easily understood is essential. Knowledge is only part of the equation.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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Puckdropper says...

However they don't know anything about anything except teaching so they don't really havy anything to teach.

According to the education theorists. If you don't know the next level then you don't have a clue why you're teaching what you're teaching other than that somebody told you to. And in math if you don't know several levels above high school algebra you don't even know what math _is_.

If he can write well enough to win a Pulitzer then he knows a Hell of a lot more about the language that any high school English teacher I've met.

If you don't have the knowledge then you can have all the fancy-Dan teaching techniques in the world and YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH.
And that's the problem. The damned teachers don't know diddly-squat about anything except teaching.
Teachers should be require to work in the real world for pay two years out of every five, in fields that utilize the subject that they teach.. If they can't get such jobs then they should have their teaching credential revoked.
As it is teachers are a bunch of ignorant clods who have never done anything in their lives except stand in front of a classroom and regurgitate crap they read in a book.
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Have to agree with that one. Too many have "never been out of school"
If you don't have the knowledge then you can have all the fancy-Dan teaching techniques in the world and YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH.
And that's the problem. The damned teachers don't know diddly-squat about anything except teaching.
Teachers should be require to work in the real world for pay two years out of every five, in fields that utilize the subject that they teach.. If they can't get such jobs then they should have their teaching credential revoked.
As it is teachers are a bunch of ignorant clods who have never done anything in their lives except stand in front of a classroom and regurgitate crap they read in a book.
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