OT: What are our schools learning

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Your ignorance is most entertaining. You would have done better to have chosen a country other than Chile. I'm not saying you're dumb - I'm typing it. :)~
R
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 00:22:21 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

Couldn't find anything to support that, but we sure look bad compared to other industrialized countries. See:
<http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/26/education.rankings.reut / index.html>
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Oh, I thought that you meant that they were "whipping our asses" in some way other than paper measures of "education".
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:57:31 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

Well, assuming we're still talking about industrialized countries, over 80% of people surveyed in western Europe accept the proofs of evolution compared about 14% who are "sure" in the US. I'd say that's a little more than a "paper measure" of the quality of education. Or would you rather believe that Europeans are inherently more intelligent than us?
Of course, if you're one of the 30% of US residents who declare evolution absolutely false (the other 56% are apparently undecided) don't even bother answering - we have no basis for discussion.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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So how does belief or nonbelief in evolution affect the bottom line?

I don't see what the relevance is to the US "falling behind third world countries". You seem to be focussed on opinions and other such bullshit as measures of success.
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On 10/16/2010 7:05 PM, J. Clarke wrote: <snip>
Your computer's clock seems to be about a half-hour off-kilter. All your posts are coming through "in the past".
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
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snipped-for-privacy@swtacobell.net.invalid says...

The camouflage is stuck on "London Police Box" too.
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On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:06:26 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

I thought we'd gotten off of schooling and were just discussing "falling behind" in general. But if you want to get back to that, I'd say teaching proper nutrition, the benefit of exercise, etc. in K-12 could well affect life expectancy.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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So do you have evidence that K-12 in the US does not teach "proper nutrition" and "the benefit of exercise" and that in those other countries it does?
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says...>> I thought we'd gotten off of schooling and were just discussing "falling

It was almost unheard of when I was in school. In my 4 years of HS, we had gym only one year, one period a week. I believe it is a requirement now. Don't know about nutrition. We did not have sex ed either.
I have no idea what other countries teach, but in some third word countries, they probably teach kids to eat anything they can to survive.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

We had sex-ed in 9th grade PE.
About the only thing I remember was how to unhook a brassiere latch one-handed (without losing a finger).
And practice makes perfect...
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Total dollar (rupee?) amount is misleading. % of GDP is probably a bit better, but that is also misleading. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp # If you look where the US falls in that graph, we're right in there with the other 'smart' countries.
"When a country values philosophy over plumbing, neither their philosophy or plumbing will hold water." I forget who said that, but there's a lot of truth to it.
R
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On 10/16/2010 9:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:

The problem with our schools today is the parents. If the parents do not create an environment that is conclusive to learning, the child will not see school as important and will not learn.
The governments (federal,state and local) can double the spending for education, but it will change nothing.
The one thing that the government schools have gotten right is that every child has unique abilities and learn rates. HOWEVER it is not the government that needs to monitor each child to see if they are at the knowledge level for their age, it is the PARENTS. They see their child on a one to one basis daily. They should be interacting with the child to assess the depth of his knowledge of the subjects. They are suppose to be learning in school. If they do not, the PARENTS should be the one who are drilling the children to bring them up to the point they should be.
Schools are not day care centers, but centers of learning. Without the very active participation of the parents there is no hope for the American education system.
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keith snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net says...

No, the problem is that (a) the kids can tell that most teachers are blithering idiots and (b) the schools are run like prisons, you _have_ to be there whether you want to or not.

Until they replace the "them as can, do, them as can't, teach, them as can't teach, administrate" model.

Where did they get that right? "No child left behind" doesn't recognize this, it tries to force them all into the same mold.

The PARENTS aren't the ones who are forcing the kids to go to these worthless schools and waste 12 years of their lives listening to blithering idiots blather.

What is the parent's basis for such assessment? The parents went through the same schools and got the same blithering blather and the ones with any sense forgot most of it as soon as they had passed the test.

Then give the parents the duty of educating their children and provide some incentive for doing so rather than dragging their children kicking and screaming into the clutches of the blithering idiots.

ROF,L. You've never actually attended a public school in the US, have you?

If the parents have to teach the kids then why have the schools?
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One must ask, when did you last visit or have intimate contact with a school or school system? Your blanket assessment of schools as prisons, worthless, and full of blithering idiots does not match any I know personally, though I will grant there are exceptions... and there is probably a higher percentage of blithering idiots among administration.
Now, I _have_ known some blithering idiots who practiced home schooling, but most of their offspring would have failed finding education in public schools.
No, I don't think parents are, or should be responsible for the item-by-item parts of an education. Parents _must_ provide a "hospitable" atmosphere for their childrens' education; this begins by recognizing the value of education and instilling that same recognition in the student. Parents must support the school's discipline -- by this, I mean not only following the rules of the school AND offering respect to both teachers adn classmates, but the discipline of following course work.
(I'm a fine one to talk here -- there probably wasn't a high school math homework assignment I handed in on time...)
Really, the true measure of education is learning to think through a problem and discover a solution, not to be able to recite the multiplication tables.
"Them as can, do, etc." is generally credited to Mark Twain, who also is credited with "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." There is a grain of truth in the first saying; it's no absolute, as the second reveals.
If you must throw out an adage, why not, "Watch one, do one, teach one," as a better way the learn?
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Steve wrote:

Actually, it's both. Here's an example. There's not enough light falling on the surface of the earth to have ANY possibility of running this country off of sunbeams. Those who mastered the multiplication tables in the third-grade can easily determine this to be true; those who did not master these fundamentals now run the government.
After my first year of law school, I was ranked 18th of 180 freshmen. I went to my advisor and asked how this could be - I skipped a third of the classes, didn't open a book until the week before finals, and so on, while my classmates lived in the library and dreamed in Latin.
"What's your undergraduate background," he asked.
"Uh, I have a Master's in math," I replied.
"Oh, then, you won't have any trouble in law school. You see, the purpose of law school is not to teach law - that changes every day! The purpose of law school is to train you to think like a lawyer! Since you already know how to think logically, deductively, objectively, you won't have any trouble."
"In general, we find that the students who come to us from math, the hard sciences, and engineering make the best law students. Those who majored in the soft sciences and business become the average law students. Those who studied the fine arts, education, and the liberal arts like English or History, well, they never really make it."
Bottom line: It's the memorization of the multiplication tables that led to mastering math which in turn guaranteed success in higher endeavors. You can't build a worthwhile structure on a feel-good foundation.

Which argues well for the one-room schoolhouse. The older kids teach the younger ones and the lesson is further imprinted.
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Steve wrote:

I've liked the following quotation ever since I first read it years ago. I share it with my students, up to the word "not", when appropriate.
Thomas H. Huxley (1825-1895): Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Bill
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The Marines get that through one's head in 13 weeks. The schools have our kids for 12 years.
On the other hand, some things have to be taught by drill and practice. Reading, writing, and basic arithmetic are fundamental tools--if you can't do those then your ability to discover solutions is severely handicapped.
Any course in which the majority of class time is spent with the teacher standing up at the front of the room regurgitating crap that he or she read out of a book should be automatically suspect--the kids can read the book a lot faster than the teacher can recite it.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Some of the college kids tell me it will be a lot faster if I just "show them how to do it". I tell them at the beginning of the course that one of my main goals is to make myself obsolete--so that don't need me around when they get stuck.
There have been various academic swings over the years, but I think it's fair to say that most educators are taking their mission seriously. I think failure is more related to social issues than on teachers not trying to teach.
Bill
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Oh, you're one of those. If you don't see your job as showing the students how to do whatever the students are supposed to end up knowing how to do then why is anybody paying you to teach?

It's more related to the teachers not knowing the subject.
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