OT.... well mostly... ping morris....

[bridgerfafc]

[Morris Dovey]

|

got a chance to see the top photo before the paged caused my internet exploder to explode...

The design is OK for a science fair project - but we've made a lot of major improvements since these appeared in the early 70's and this design doesn't reflect (sorry) any of those improvements.

The design will run too hot, meaning that it'll be unnecessarily lossy from both conductivity and re-radiation in the IR range - as well as the obvious reflective losses (if you can clearly see the details of an absorber, too much of the energy is being reflected back to the environment and isn't being collected.)

Nonetheless, I feel obliged to tip my hat to the builder because, even though the design is "immature", the builder still did very much better than those people who sit on their butts and do nothing - except complain - about high energy costs.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Lee]

[busbus]

I think I need to make this cool mouse, too, that was on that site:

[bridgerfafc]

it viewed fine in firefox in my "default" mode: no scripts, no flash, no popups, most of the adservers killfiled, etc. I had no idea that there even was anything explosive on the site. sorry about that.

ayup. kind of a toy, but it does demonstrate the right kind of thinking.

now here's what I was kinda getting at: you have the background to make real, constructive criticisms. gizmodo is full of people who want to learn. you seem willing to teach....

ayup.

[Morris Dovey]

[e-mail] wrote: | On May 8, 6:00 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote: || [e-mail] wrote: || |||

||| 740.php || || I got a chance to see the top photo before the paged caused my || internet exploder to explode... | | it viewed fine in firefox in my "default" mode: no scripts, no | flash, no popups, most of the adservers killfiled, etc. I had no | idea that there even was anything explosive on the site. sorry | about that.

Don't be - it hasn't been nicknamed "Internet Exploder" without cause.

|| The design is OK for a science fair project - but we've made a lot || of major improvements since these appeared in the early 70's and || this design doesn't reflect (sorry) any of those improvements. | | ayup. kind of a toy, but it does demonstrate the right kind of | thinking.

Absolutely. His/her next will very likely be improved.

|| The design will run too hot, meaning that it'll be unnecessarily || lossy from both conductivity and re-radiation in the IR range - as || well as the obvious reflective losses (if you can clearly see the || details of an absorber, too much of the energy is being reflected || back to the environment and isn't being collected.) | | now here's what I was kinda getting at: you have the background to | make real, constructive criticisms. gizmodo is full of people who | want to learn. you seem willing to teach...

I've become an expert at recognizing the mistakes I've already made. FYI, there are regulars here who know much more than I about the science and engineering of these things. I'm just a hacker who's willing to make one mistake after another until I finally manage to make things come out right. The people who want to learn deserve better than an old geezer enumerating the shortcomings of their design - they need someone who can explain /why/ in terms they can understand, and I'm sorry to say that someone isn't me.

Building a really good solar heating panel requires knowledge from a number of disciplines in which I've had no little or no training: physics, heat transfer, materials, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, architecture, etc. ad nausea. The field positively _begs_ for multidiscipline collaboration.

Most of the people building this stuff think that temperature and heat are synonyms, that hotter is always better. They choke when told that _cooler_ is better, and that there's more than twice as much solar radiation that can't be seen as can be. Some get downright angry when you tell 'em that /painting/ a collector black is begging the question, and that what's really needed is to design the collector to /be/ black (no matter what the colors of its components are!)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[bridgerfafc]

I bet you'd be surprised. I bet if you posted one link to your website you'd have an avid audience in no time. though makezine.com is probably more to the point than gizmodo.

all them highfalutin' science thingies are meaningless without some nuts and bolts shop practice to hold them all together.

see? you said all of that real stuff in plain 'ol english.....

[Morris Dovey]

[e-mail] wrote: || I've become an expert at recognizing the mistakes I've already || made. FYI, there are regulars here who know much more than I about || the science and engineering of these things. I'm just a hacker || who's willing to make one mistake after another until I finally || manage to make things come out right. The people who want to learn || deserve better than an old geezer enumerating the shortcomings of || their design - they need someone who can explain /why/ in terms || they can understand, and I'm sorry to say that someone isn't me. | | I bet you'd be surprised. | I bet if you posted one link to your website you'd have an avid | audience in no time. though makezine.com is probably more to the | point than gizmodo.

Maybe, but I don't really need an audience - what I need is customers, and it pleases me to be able to share what I can on my web site to encourage the DIY folks.

That sharing is necessarily limited because if I give it all away I jeopardize my (already precarious) ability to earn a living and to develop new stuff.

|| Building a really good solar heating panel requires knowledge from || a number of disciplines in which I've had no little or no training: || physics, heat transfer, materials, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, || architecture, etc. ad nausea. The field positively _begs_ for || multidiscipline collaboration. | | all them highfalutin' science thingies are meaningless without some | nuts and bolts shop practice to hold them all together.

Well - yes _and_ no. Just about any of the regulars on the wreck could assemble a wooden box to clear specifications that'd be as good as those I build. I would guess that a visit to a metalworking ng would produce a similar result for the metal parts.

But the group of people who can solve real-world problems in laminar flow and black body radiation is pretty small. I'm not one of 'em. Knowing the location of the arena doesn't make one a star player...

|| Most of the people building this stuff think that temperature and || heat are synonyms, that hotter is always better. They choke when || told that _cooler_ is better, and that there's more than twice as || much solar radiation that can't be seen as can be. Some get || downright angry when you tell 'em that /painting/ a collector || black is begging the question, and that what's really needed is to || design the collector to /be/ black (no matter what the colors of || its components are!) | | see? you said all of that real stuff in plain 'ol english.....

I did, didn't I :-)

After I said it in plain ol' English, I spent some time wondering in what other arenas people might have tried to design to absorb all wavelengths. It took a while (and just the right stimulus - I'll post a photo on abpw) but I've identified just one other application.

It kinda sneaks up on you, but having seen both applications I'm beginning to wonder if both operate on the same principles - of course my implementation is much more crude - but is considerably less expensive and performs well at subsonic speeds. :-)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA