OT: We the people?

Page 6 of 8  
On Feb 3, 8:11 pm, tough guy or gal Mark or Juanita

As you should recall, the first time the embassy was seized the Ayatollah send his 'Revolutionary Guard' to the embassy where they secured the release of the hostages and a return of the embassy to American Control.
It was not unreasonable to suppose, at first, that he could be prevailed upon to do the same again. Only after weeks of confusion and near anarchy did it become clear that the Ayatollah was in control of the hostage takers.
No that is not appeasement. To appease someone you have to give something to them.
Carter gave them nothing. Carter took from them, diplomatic recogntion, military, economic, and educational aid, and froze their financial assets in the US. He held military action in reserve, to be used in the event the hostages were harmed.
Reagan's rhetoric implied that he would take military action soon after taking office and this was most likely instrumental in securing their release, as well as his election.
If you see any revisionism there, please point it out.

In exchange for the arms deal Hizbollah released two hostages in Lebanon and (predictably) promptly kidnapped two more to make up for them.
IF the object of the exercise was ransom and illegal funding for the Contras an afterthought the arms deal per se was merely bad policy.
If the object of the exercise was to raise money illegally for Contras then the sale of arms to our enemies in Iran was treason.
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On Feb 2, 5:17 pm, tough guy or gal Mark or Juanita

The free market will take care of that. It was the law of supply and demand that shot Rush Limbaugh up top fame and fortune, he found a market with a great deal more demand than supply.

Bingo!
Though I would prefer to say that it protects that right, rather than grants it. I argue that the authority of a government follows from the right of its citizens, not vice versa.

Not if his point of view prioritizes the individual over the collective.
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By the way. Lack of media attention has a lot to do with my guy dropping out. I would like to thank the media for narrowing the gap to just Hillary and Obama. Job well done!

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Nor the electors.
They could be selected by lottery.
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This is the lockeroom mentality that has sadly made the US a second rate nation, and we are. CEO's all over the country publicly state that fact daily. What is sad is we have a broadcast station founded with the expressed intent of maintaining, and in fact fertilizing, this delusional concept that individual fortitude has anything to do with ones ability to gain, or hold, elected office in the US. Eight years of this mentality, when tallied by history, will have retarded our progress by 20 years, and that's if we are extremely lucky. It is confirmed daily, from all sources, both sides, that we have been in an overall state of decline for years. Some individual indicators have been positive over this time but the overall has pointed to this outcome clearly. However, only now, in the final hours, are both sides admitting that they have seen these problem for quite some time and are distancing themselves as best they can. Pathetic.
The system is rigged. Everyone on US soils knows it and has known it for years but cash soothes all wounds. Even though this has been grinding on the nerves of the US voter for the past 20 years the soothing cash and the distraction of debt is too abundant to allow any overwhelming change. Our electoral process has absolutely nothing to do with moral conviction, perseverance, tenacity, or any form of "calling". It has to do with cash and corporate connection. Our system is setup to keep the average american numb through consumption and debt resolution. For the average citizen there is no time for anything other than those two things and that's the way the gvt. designed it.
What is truly pathetic, is that all who voted for GW should feel completely comfortable in voting for HC. They are one in the same. Hillary is more educated, more intelligent, has a better command of the English language, can form full sentences, and conduct herself better in press conferences and in public, but substantively they are one in the same. They are party liners. It doesnt matter Dem or Repub. they are US gvt. party liners. They will work endlessly to support the current system, as it stands, til death, period. They will do this because IT supports them. There will be no change between her and GW other than subtle, trivial, policy issues. So cast your vote. They are one in the same.
There is no conservative and liberal anymore. Our current spending record for 7+ years has been liberal to say the least. We are broke. Hillary's will likely be no different other than a few relatively minor issues. What we need now, is a truly non government party to compete with the (cliche) career politicians. Even if he/she is a total novice. Who cares, we are in the hole and swirling around the drain. Fresh meat, fresh blood, new perspective. Obama isnt even new. Paul isnt new.
Mark
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wrote:

Second rate to whom? As the worlds wealthiest, most powerful, most productive, most envied and feared power in the world I trust you must believe in some alien super power we haven't heard about?
Are these the same CEO's that gave us Enron, the dot com collapse or possibly the sub prime fiasco or way too many excesses to bother listing? Rod
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If you guys are going to continue this thread, then you better define what it is you're measuring. What attributes make a first rate country, i.e., education levels, per capita GDP, strength of currency, percentage of people in poverty, etc. Then determine how the US compares with the rest of the world. Anything else is nothing but conjecture.
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Jeff wrote:

If you are going to define as percentage of people in poverty, you better define what "poverty" mean. Being poor in the US is orders of magnitude different from being poor in a 3rd world country and considerably different than in some countries like Italy or France.

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Mark & Juanita wrote:

For many (admitttedly not all), being poor in the USA today is better than being middle class was half a century ago.
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No shit!
The majority of poor people in the US own televisions and cars, have access to food, emergency health care at the very least and 12 years of school for their children.
Compared to my life, they have it rough and I don't mean to minimize their difficulties. But our poor would be middle class in the Sudan, Burma, or Haiti.
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"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message

better
different
For some reason the picture that sticks in my mind going past the local elementary school every morning sez it all: kids, in $120/pair basketball shoes, bussed in early to take advantage of the free breakfast.
I certainly don't begrudge any kid a good meal, but there' something wrong with that picture ... but even worse that it's PC to pretend not to notice, or mention.
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It tends to make one wonder, but...differences in eras. As a kid, we got the high top Keds. The classier kids got some kind of fancy tennis shoe that looks a lot like today's cross trainer (hey, nobody cross- trained back then, you just ran, jumped, lifted weights and jumped rope when you weren't swimming or walking). We tried and tried (my brother and I) to get Mom to let us allow the Keds to get raggedy at the toes and ankles, but she persisted in tossing the old ones and buying new (under $1.50 a pair, IMS; we used to get our dress shoes, after we grew enough, from true Army and Navy stores, true surplus, for a buck a pair) no matter how broke we were.
It is an odd world today. I recall riding the train into Manhattan with Mom when she decided a new sports jacket was my heaviest need. Delancy Street, back then, was the center of the seconds from the rag trade. As I recall, we paid about $8-9 for a $90 jacket that needed the lining properly sewn in a couple places. I wonder if parents today do that? Do kids today brag about it? I sure did.
Depression era parents did make a difference, I guess, especially when you were growing up in the immediate postwar era.
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Boy, somebody has been lapping up the propaganda the news media is trying to force down everyone's throat. If we are the wealthiest, most powerful nation then why are we held hostage by the few nations of OPEC and their control of our oil importation? If we are the most productive, then why are all our jobs going overseas?
Everybody rants and raves about this so-called economy stimulus package. How is it going to stimulate "our" economy when most people will just run down to Wally's world and buy something made in china?
Before I stray too much, those CEO's were probably the ones from Exxon announcing record profits while our gas prices keep going higher and higher, causing the little people lose more of that great American wealth.
wrote:

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When? The normal message seems to quite to the contrary. When was the last time you heard that we were the worlds largest exporter?

We specifically get most of our oil elsewhere, with Canada and Venezuela as major suppliers...nonetheless the world itself is quite dependent on oil since even at current price points it is the most economical energy alternative available.....simply put certain Middle-East countries own a valuable resource that the world deems worth buying.
Incidently medical cost inflation is a considerably worse short term problem, with energy..... competition eventually plays a moderating role.
If we are the most productive, then why are all our

With less than a 5% unemployment rate "most jobs" might be a tad overstated......approx. 20% of our jobs are manufacturing, obviously some of those are quite sensitive to the radically lower wages of other countries. Nonetheless we still export more product than any other country in the world but we buy more as well.

Because the production cost/profit of a product is only a part(sometimes a very small part) of the eventual retail price.....ports, trucking, warehouse and retail are all domestic jobs.....and 80% of the economy has nothing to do with manufacturing imports or otherwise.....
However no tax rebate can reasonably be expected to truly stop a actual looming recession...they have happened like clockwork almost every 7-12 years for the past century and the sheer size of the economy dwarfs any $100 billion giveaway but under current circumstances it may delay the inevitable stumble.

I guess the "little people" had better buy shares of Exxon....Rod
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<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_ level_imports/current/import.html>
In November 2007 we Canuckistanis were the #1 oil importer (both crude and overall petroleum) to the US. We are not OPEC members.
Overall, the top 10 for November 2007 was:
Canada Mexico Saudi Arabia Venezuela Nigeria Iraq Russia Algeria Virgin Islands Angola
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Dave Balderstone wrote:

We also get a lot of (natural) gas from you ;-)
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That's why I have to be especially nice to my Canadian brother-inlaw.....get on his bad side and I may have to walk<G>....Rod
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Interesting to note that Canada pumps oil from the Arctic and recovers it from shale, but we'd rather buy it from them than do the same.
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If we keep that up, someday we may be the only country left with untapped petroleum reserves. As you note, interesting...
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wrote:

ITYMTS exporter to, assuming you were writing in the King's English and not some obscure Northern dialect.
And thank you very much for that oil, for protecting our diplomats in Tehran, for fighting alongside us in two World Wars, for harboring our dissidents and fugitive slaves, and for keeping us supplied with whiskey during prohibition.
The current high price of petroleum has made extraction from Canadian oil sands economical. I'm not sure whom to thank for that.
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