When I was a kid, we had a small unit above the sink in the kitchen
and a big mofo next to the bathtub. All the hot water (scolding hot)
we would need.
In The Netherlands, we called those tankless units 'geysers'...like 60
Oh.. and my mother used to wash my shitty diapers in a 'front-loading'
washing machine..... zowie... modern technology has come across the
One of the features of the geyser next to our shower (when I was near
adulthood) was (in hindsight) rather scary. With the water flowing, and
therefore the geyser "on", an auxiliary flame would shoot out from a
connection near the bottom of the unit. Only about 7-10 cm long nice
blue flame. When we noted this unnecessary and useless flame, we shut
off the unit and called the gasfitter (there was some company that
provided a service contract-like service to keep the house "safe" as far
as gas-supplied appliances and their piping was concerned).
The unit that replaced it was 3 times bigger, eeded electricity, fans
and better exhausting, and completely separated the combustion chamber
from the room, I believe.
Most of the Europe have water tanks in the home for better pressure,
most of the US does not. Read the specs on the tankless water heaters,
check at the temp of the water out of the pipe then make your decision
as to the usefulness of a tankless water heater.
(sixoneeight) = 618
Let see a flow of 8 gallons per hour will give you a 40 degree rise
with a tankless. The cost of the unit versus a 12 year 50 gallon unit.
For me the math does not add up. But then again here in this home we
will replace the AC/furnace and hot water heater with geothermal. All
I am saying is do your homework before you let someone talk you into a
tankless water heater.
(sixoneeight) = 618
We have a tankless electric hot water heater out in the back building.
Except for the problem of having to open the water all the way initially
to get it to kick on, it's great for running the sink.
Tankless units might not be good for whole house purposes yet, but for
point-of-use water heating they're well worth looking in to.
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.
Just for funzies, checked a tankless web site.
Chose GE strictly at random since I didn't even know they were in the
Picked a natural gas indoor unit.
Specs indicate that at 4.36 GPM, the rise is 77F.
That is a long way from your specs.
SFWIW, across the country, year around, city water supplies deliver
50F-55F water from their underground pipes.
50F + 77F = 122F, which is a comfortable shower, at least for me.
4.36 GPM is a lot of water for a shower.
Might want to recheck your data.
BTW, price is a whole nother issue<grin>
Practical in use data from my uncle who has his plumbing business in
Chicago area. GE data is from they're lab, in the field they did not
perform as promised has been the experience. A 77 f rise required a
flow of 2 gallon per hour or less. At $1500 per unit and a payback of
50 years it does not add up. You can buy into GEs data but they have
an agenda (ie selling the things).
I replaced the hot water tank (NG), furnace and central air all in the
last month. It was time. The water tank had a seeping leak, and the
furnace was sadly out of date. The central air had an estimated Seer
of around 6, (An old, but very reliable Coleman) so it had to go too.
Why now? Well, tax incentives, one hell of a deal with the gas company
(Free AC with furnace) and a rebate program to boot. I seriously
looked into the tankless water heaters as they are devices which have
always made a lot of sense to me--> heat the water as you use it. But
not at those prices. The payback would have 55 years. Not to mention
the amount of space AROUND the damn thing which I had to give up. They
will come down in price, but by that time nurses will give me sponge
baths along with my Pablum.
This whole incentive/rebate/tax-credit approach to helping the economy
is appearing to help as some of the tax rebated include basic home
renovations such as countertops *S*
I've used tankless "whole house" units (two per, one up, one down) in the
last two houses I've built. And, it is spec'ed for the current one I'm
building, although the owner's are now contemplating a hybrid unit.
The only "whole house" tankless worth considering, IMO, are gas units... the
electric units will just about guarantee a 300 A service as a single unit
can require as many as three 60A breakers to operate.
The big cost for gas units is venting ... will run you about $5/inch for the
double walled stainless steel vent pipe and the attachments ... otherwise a
unit will run about $1800 US to purchase in this area.
The units I use need 12" of clearance above and below, and are about 20"
high to start with.
I have a SketchUp file of an installation in the current project that I
would post, but you it would probably scare you to death trying to figure
out how to open it!
<g, d &r>
If I can do a radiosity rendering on a complex model, I think I might
have enough juice to open up a sketch in crayon. =0)
Well you should be able to get SU to work too huh? ;~) All that power.
I know, I know. LOL
Texas is like saying the North East of the US.
East Texas is covered about 6 months of the year in fog or cloud.
West Texas is sunny for 300+ days.
South Texas is likely 6 months again.
We get clouds from Canada, Gulf coast region, Pacific south of Hawaii.
Fronts push stuff here from Colorado or North Dakota.
Sad state of things. Rats really.
Morris Dovey wrote:
> Texas is like saying the North East of the US.
Hmm - the only solar water heater I ever built was when I lived in the
Hudson River valley about 60 miles or so north of NYC. I took it out to
test on a completely overcast, foggy April Saturday morning and tested
with 55F tap water - and got the only burn (scalding, actually) I've
ever had from a solar collector within 60 seconds of setting it up. Hurt
like blazes and took weeks to heal.
> East Texas is covered about 6 months of the year in fog or cloud.
> West Texas is sunny for 300+ days.
> South Texas is likely 6 months again.
Something's wrong. Methinks I need to build another one and take it to
southeastern Texas for a bit of testing...
> We get clouds from Canada, Gulf coast region, Pacific south of Hawaii.
> Fronts push stuff here from Colorado or North Dakota.
Clouds should slow 'em down, but not by enough to have folks taking cold
Which reminds me, Robatoy's little shop "firnace" should be in the
process of shutting itself down about now. Have you noticed a drop in
output over past week or two, Rob?
> Sad state of things. Rats really.
I think it's an easily solved problem - and from the numbers I've seen
tossed out in this thread, worth solving.
Digressing again, I received an e-mail with a video from a couple of
young guys in Pakistan who liked one of the solar engines they saw on my
web site well enough to try building one their own. Theirs isn't
solar-powered yet, but might be interesting to folks in sunny areas who
have a use for irrigation pumps. There's a photo and two short videos at
Wow! Did I ramble far enough off-topic? :)
Output has dropped. For one reason, the units are under an overhang.
The unexpected time I really noticed their effectiveness, was when I
wasn't even in the shop on some weekends. I'd turn the thermostat down
to 8C, walked in one Sunday afternoon to pick up a few things and the
shop was 10C, whilst the outside temp was around 2C. Now, by no means
is 10C comfortable, it got there without my furnace.
At every opportunity, <G> and please, keep doing so.
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