OT: WalMart Women in Playboy

Page 2 of 6  
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:38 -0500, "George"

What contract? There was no contract. That's what we were negotiating and the FAA dug in their heels.

None of the ones who were fired (except those who won appeals on procedural error, like me) were given the opportunity to go back until about 1997. That was a 16 year sentence. Murderers get out serving less time than that.

What does that mean? Were you there? The employer has the obligation to negotiate in good faith. They didn't. So does the employee. They did.

Whatever that means. But I don't think you were there.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
LRod wrote:

And if aircraft had augured we know who would have painted as the murderers.

That's obtuse.

I wasn't there but I watched it happen.
Any way you cut it the Reagan Administrations actions were highly inappropriate.
The potential result of this action could have been highly fatal. Which only proves how inappropriate the action was.
It should be noted there are government employees in unions. Why not the ATCs? Less important positions have collective bargaining.
In the least the Reagan Administration used union busting tactics. Last I knew that wasn't legal.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

No doubt about it.

I agree, and it wasn't my statement.

I was. but there's been another poster in this thread that I was responding to that I think you're confusing with me.

There was. PATCO was the union at the time. And we had collective bargaining. During the period (post 3 Aug 81) after which PATCO was decertified (I think that happened around November) until sometime in 1982 or 83, there was no union. Ultimately, a new one was formed, NATCA, which is still in place.
How ironic that the actions of the government created the necessity of another controllers union so soon after 3 Aug 81.
They kept trying to recruit me but I told them that although I was extremely sympathetic to their goals, I couldn't in good conscience join a labor organization whose members had crossed my picket line.

Apparently it is if you can get away with it. And because of 3 Aug 81, a lot of companies have resorted to that very thing. Continental Airlines comes immediately to mind. So does Hormel. It's like the 1880s all over again.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
LRod wrote:

I guess my formatting wasn't as clean as it could have been.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Unfortunately, it never was illegal -- employers simply never tried it because the government would have "frowned" on such an act. But once Reagan led the charge, the cat was out of the bag for good.
tt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Test Tickle wrote:

And we have the same people in the present presidential administration.
Different front 'man', but the same people behind him.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Due regard"allows flight outside ATC coverage. It's a special VFR.
An ARTCC type would have known.
How about MARSA?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:29:49 -0500, "George"

This 30 year ARTCC type with some time in a TRACON, too, has never heard of it. Please cite an FAA publication with reference to it. I don't recall ever seeing it in 7110.65 (formerly 7110.9), the Air Traffic Procedures Handbook.

Well, duh. In some facilities there's not a day that goes by that a controller isn't involved with flights using it. That was the case in Jacksonville when I was there. Without thinking at all, I can recall at least 12 military facilites we had in the airspace (NPA, VPS, PAM, NIP/NZC/NRB, NEA, NBC, CHS, MYR, SSC, VAD, DHN, SVN). That doesn't include the various auxiliary fields associated with some of those bases. There were at least three more immediately adjacent (MCO, WRB, SEM). And there were another half dozen that we were affected by, as well (MCF, COF, GSB, NKT, FBG, MGE/NCQ).
In Chicago we didn't encounter it as much. There was nowhere near the military use of airspace in ZAU as there is in other places. A couple of ANG bases, a couple of MOAs, and a refueling track or two. Way too much air carrier to deal with a lot of military ops.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
No reference on the shelf any more, hated flying then and now, and memory won't serve for numbers, but as we departed below ATC coverage, even where there were oceanic, we filed "due regard" which was for the controllers, the equivalent of MARSA, to carry out operations. Used it in the strike days to get them off the hook, too.
Now check your memory bank and discover that labor law provides for the termination of those ignoring a back-to work order, and replacement of workers after a rejection of a final management offer. I know that sympathy for management is nonexistent, but it would not be "bargaining," but extortion if they were denied such recourse.
I'm sure you'll find comfort in the following http://www.socialistworker.org/2001/374/374_10_PATCO.shtml
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:03:51 -0500, "George"

I don't know what you mean by "below ATC coverage." You might mean radar coverage, or you might mean uncontrolled airspace. In the first case, you either file IFR, VFR, or ask for Special VFR. There's no other type. Radar isn't required for any of them.
In the case of uncontrolled airspace, there's nothing to file, since you couldn't get a clearance anyway. ATC clearances are only good in controlled airspace.
You sound like you might be describing military operations, but even military controllers use 7110.65. There may be additional military procedures in effect locally, but they wouldn't relate to basic ATC.
For example, a military approach control (RATCC, for example) adjacent to a MOA, Warning Area, etc., might have a local procedure to facilitate operations directly into that area without IFR clearance (NBC and NKT are a couple of places that come to mind), but there's no language for that operation other than IFR, VFR, or Special VFR in the ATP.
In any event, "due regard" is not a standard FAA operation that would be known to any "ARTCC type."

None whatsoever.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:02:38 -0500, "George"

I think what Mark is saying is that some union members were pissed off! lol
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

strike. I'm sure this was just an oversight on your part.

The *law* prohibited the ATCs from going on strike. It was the ATCs who refused to act in accord with the law.
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Amen. PATCO, RIP.
tt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
LRod writes:

Somehow, I don't think a WalMart employee is apt to send a speeding shopping cart into the ground, killing dozens of people.
Charlie Self
"I am not worried about the deficit. It is big enough to take care of itself. " Ronald Reagan
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22 Nov 2003 10:23:49 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Don't you think Wal-Mart has things like fork lifts?...or shipping docks?...or other dangerous activities?
I think yer still livin' in the dark ages, Charlie. Drinking on the job...or bringing it TO the job...is ALWAYS dangerous.
I doubt if there are any companies where this is not prohibited.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Trent replies:

Ohfercrissakes. What nonsense. I don't drink at all, but I do know that comparing a forklift driver's level of danger with one beer--which was what I was writing of--to any kind of air traffic control is bullshit. Stuff a forklift into a back area full of pillows and you got a mess. Stuff a 747 into a 737 and you got one helluva lot worse than a mess.

I think that may be one of the silliest statements anyone has ever made about drinking.
I used to drink. End of day, a beer on the typewriter created a danger to my manuscripts, I guess, but it sure as hell didn't create a danger to anyone else, nor did a drink with lunch.

I think you're living in some kind of weird-assed Puritan world.
Charlie Self
"Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it." E. B. White
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Charlie Self wrote:

While I don't disagree with the point you're making, I have to chuckle at this one.
Twice while I worked there we had to evacuate the entire store after a *manager* crashed the forklift into an overhead gas heater.
*Twice*, mind you.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Silvan writes:

Yeah, well...that's why they're managers.
Charlie Self
"Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it." E. B. White
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Charlie Self wrote:

Quite.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

We once had to evacuate the south end of town after a Foreman misjudged the distance when repositioning a couple of bulk rail cars and snapped the hose we were using to empty a bulk car of sulfer dioxide.
Whew. Fortunately we had protective gear, as was de rigueur when working around that nasty stuff, but we still got out of there fast.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.