OT-VIDEO of AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS

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The extent of prisoner abuse goes far beyond a few photos. How about beating, rape, torture, sexual abuse, and murder? It's been widely reported in most of the major media outlets, and if you don't believe me you can do a search for yourself.
Murder is murder. After what has surfaced in the last few days, there's plenty of evidence that shows both sides have committed atrocities and neither side can claim a moral high ground over the other. Your rage over what happened to Nick Berg is no different than what the Iraqis feel when their own are killed.
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"mp"

In the few cases that may exist that doesn't make the beheading any more palatable. The moral equivelency argument doesn't work here.

I missed the slow sawing off of Iraqi prisoner heads reports. Could you pull your head out of your ass long enough to post some?
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There's been more than a few cases. About 23 or 24 if I recall.

over
when
The following is quoted from a May 7th ABC news report about several US marine reservists being charged in a beating death.
"The photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces."
On your own personal moral equivalency scale, how would you rate a beheading vs a slow painful death after three days of torture?
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Part of it depends on whether the victims were our guys, or their guys. As a dual-citizen of both the US and the UK, I value the lives of Americans and Britons more than I do the lives of the enemy. Sorry. That's war.
--
Bill

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I'm curious as to why you would consider an Iraqi your enemy.
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Islamic extremism is the enemy. I put my people first....as do they.
--
Bill

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Because they're shooting RPGs at us?
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The latest blockbuster coming out is the movie "Troy." What was that about? A girl?
Of all humanity's historical accounts, what is more prevalent than war?
How have prisoners ever been treated? Check out the movie "The Passion." That was 2000 years ago.
Yes, be outraged. Be angry. Call it unjust, evil, and inhumane. It is.
But it is human. It doesn't matter if you are American, Iraqi, or from the far reaches, we will always have war. And if you turn your back on war, it will hit you in the back. We HAD been turning our back on the terrorist-war, and it hit us on 9/11.
You will NEVER get any society of humans to act in a non-human manner.
Indyrose
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"mp"

That's still very general. What was the torture and how does it equate to a slow beheading?

"Allegedly" doesn't prove he died a slow painful death or that the three day assault was constant, or even severe. Someone can die from one blow landing wrong or him landing wrong. So it doesn't prove that it was equvilant to a slow beheading.

You apparently confuse a "beheading" which is traditionaly quick with a slow sawing off beheading with a knife. I couldn't compare the two until I had the facts. You don't have them either but that doesn't seem to matter.
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I'm not confusing anything. I don't see how murder by torture can be considered in any way morally superior to murder by beheading. And I'm not referring solely to the one news item I posted, but in general to all the beating deaths of Iraqis over the last year while in US or British custody.
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Those responsible for beatings are being prosecuted -- check it out yourself. The same problems occur in all countries in prisons, in civilized countries, those who commit such acts are prosecuted, in non-civiized countries they are promoted and come to positions of power in Hussein and Taliban regimes.
Thus far, no credible evidence of rape, torture, or murder (apart from the beatings cited above) has been presented -- only allegations.

There is a world of difference between an accident of war and an atrocity like the killings perpetuated against Nick Berg or the 4 civilian contractors.
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:>
: There is a world of difference between an accident of war
An accident? Can you define 'accident' please? In such a way that it covers 1800+ photos of US soldiers torturing Iraqi detainees, some 60% of whom are probably detained for the wrong reasons?
    -- Andy Barss
    
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wrote:

And from whos ass might you have pulled that 60% figure?
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Anonymoose <Ihatespam> wrote:
: wrote: :>:> :> :>: There is a world of difference between an accident of war :> :> :> An accident? Can you define 'accident' please? In such a way that it :> covers 1800+ photos of US soldiers torturing Iraqi detainees, some 60% :> of whom are probably detained for the wrong reasons?
: And from whos ass might you have pulled that 60% figure?
It's in the Taguba report. Heard of that? Bothered to read it?
    -- Andy Barss
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wrote:

Hey, Andy, have you read every piece of paper that's been written on the subject of Iraq? When you have, you can chide someone for not having read the Taguba report. All the relevant section states is that approx. 60% of the detainees who were being held for "Crimes Against the Coalition" are deemed to no longer pose a threat. The number you really want is the number of Iraqis being "tortured" who are part of this group. And then you're going to have to back out the number of photos that don't represent actual torture. Sorry...in my book, pointing at a guys wang doesn't constitute torture.
todd
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Yes and No. But, as Todd points out to you, "detained for the wrong reasons" and "deemed to no longer pose a threat" are two different things. Which is worse, my skepticism as to the validity and source of that 60% figure, or your misuse of it?
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The number is actually quite a bit higher. From the Red Cross report on Iraqi prisoner abuse:
"Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units."
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: :>
: : There is a world of difference between an accident of war
: An accident? Can you define 'accident' please? In such a way that it : covers 1800+ photos of US soldiers torturing Iraqi detainees, some 60% of : whom are probably detained for the wrong reasons?
And mark and juanita again fail to reply to the thread. They introduce controversy, then run away from it. Again and again.
    -- Andy Barss
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On Sat, 15 May 2004 05:00:54 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

No Andy, just a reasonable decision regarding the use of my time. Some comments are simply not worth responding to. In the case cited above, I had responded to a very similar comment within the thread and didn't feel it worth pointing out that if one considers having someone stand naked with a hood or pair of women's panties on their head to be torture, then a new name must be found for a description of the various acts of barbarism perpetrated upon prisoners that resulted in mutilation and death. As to the perpetratrators of the "torture" pictures, the military is already pursuing action against them. In those cases where excessive force was used, that too is being investigated and the perpetrators will likely be prosecuted as well (as opposed to promoted under the former Iraqi regime)
You further took the quote above out of context in which the word "accident" had absolutely no connection in the conversation at hand to the detainee question. The extension from a discussion comparing deliberate barbarism with accidental collateral damage in a wartime action to mistreatment of detainees was simply not worth the effort of reply.
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 04:12:19 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

... and once again you have snipped all relevant context from the original post which was dealing with trying to generate moral equivalence between deliberately targeting civilians vs. accidental damage caused by actions directed at insurgents who are using civilians as human shields.
Your comment above has no relevance to that particular part of the discussion.

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