OT-VIDEO of AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS

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You really aren't trying to equate Nick Berg with osama bin laden, are you?
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would
you?
im simply saying killing is killing. whether its done with a knife at close range or a bomb from 100 miles away. nick berg is just another needless casualty of this needless war. one that will be used to justify it. and that is the real trajety of the nick berg story.
randy
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Does that mean that if osama bin laden is ever captured and killed, he will be just another needless casualty of a needless war on terrorism? Again, you really didn't mean to put Nick Berg and osama in the same category, did you?
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i
close
and
will be just another needless casualty of a needless war on

the same category, did you?
you are the one that seems to keep putting them in the same category. im simply putting all types of murder in the same category.
randy
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few
are
needless
I really thought I was going to stay out of this thread...
You have twice now made a moral equivalence between Muslim extremists killing Nick Berg and someone killing Osama Bin Laden. I'm suggesting that you just stop now and admit you misspoke. In your words, you want to put them "in the same category". Well, they're not in the same category. The big difference is, one was innocent and the other is guilty. Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'd be torn about whether to apply it to OBL.
todd
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at
in
im
that
it
no, in my words i put all types of MURDER in the same catagory. no matter what he has done, if a bunch of americans did to bin ladin what was done to nick berg they should be punished. there are proper legal ways to deal with bin ladin. two wrongs dont make a right.
its thinking that two wrongs make a right that got us into this mess in the first place.
randy
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<snip>

There is no difference. I expect the soldier on the other side to act/react identically. But I sure as hell do NOT consider that SOB with the black hood and knife to be a soldier, nor do I offer him the same respect and consideration I would offer a soldier. He is a criminal/murderer under the laws/rules/mores of any society, civilized or uncivilized, that I have ever heard of. And if it isn't, then it's not a society, it is a anarchical mob straight out of Darwin's survival of the fittest.

I totally agree with this point. We do need to make damn sure we should be there. But, who makes that decision? In a true democracy, we would have a popular vote on every detail. That may work fairly well in a small group, but not in a nation of hundreds of millions. None of us have individual access to the information (intelligence) or resources to gather the information needed to make an informed - repeat: INFORMED - decision. We all react to the information, complete, incomplete, correct, incorrect, or biased, provided by the various news media. And, if you are familiar with my postings in other threads, you may realize that I trust the news media about the same as I trust a congressman to keep his hands out of my pocket.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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act/react identically. But I sure as hell do NOT consider that SOB

respect and consideration I would offer a soldier. He is

or uncivilized, that I have ever heard of. And if it isn't,

survival of the fittest.
Is an occupying soldier somehow morally superior to someone resisting the occupation?
There not much difference between a beheading and beating a person to death, other than the beheading involves less suffering. The end result is the same. Murder.
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wrote:

soldier
act/react identically. But I sure as hell do NOT consider that SOB

respect and consideration I would offer a soldier. He is

or uncivilized, that I have ever heard of. And if it isn't,

survival of the fittest.
all im saying is if we are to apply laws/rules/mores of society, we need to apply it to both sides. when iraqi civilians are killed by a bomb on 'accident' i think we need to see proportional coverage in the media but we dont own up to it. we see the nightly count of americans that have died in iraq but no such coverage of how many iraqis. what we see is one incident and its being used to justify our own behavior based on the false premise that his wrongful death has more significance than anybody elses wrongful death.

be
there. But, who makes that decision? In a true democracy,

a small group, but not in a nation of hundreds of

well this is why america is a republic and not a true democracy.. we elect leaders to make our decisions for us. if the system worked this would be completely fair and understandable. unfortunately our pool of people to select from is severely limited by our two party system mentality, propigated by the media.

resources to gather the information needed to make

information, complete, incomplete, correct, incorrect, or biased,

postings in other threads, you may realize that I trust the

of my pocket.
i agree. this is the fundamental problem. the sources cannot be trusted. not the media, and certainly not the government.
randy
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elect
yes randy, you hit the nail on the head here. well done.

sigh, you missed the nail and smashed your thumb! the reason the pool of people is severely limited is because of the voting public. it's voters who give these clowns power. people get fired up and vote for who makes the best promises and who kisses the most babies. they don't pay attention beyond that. if the voting public actually paid attention to what goes on in dc and held politicians accountable for their actions, we would be much better off.
frank
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be
who
fundamentally i think we completely agree. ill just add one thing. if the voting public actually paid attention, and had a source of information they could trust to provide unbiased reports on exactly what is going on, and held politicians accountable, things would be much better off.
randy
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xrongor wrote:

And if pigs had wings...
"If" /is/ a big word.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA
  Click to see the full signature.
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Tom Veatch responds:

Tom's got my vote.
Charlie Self "In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of office." Ambrose Bierce
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wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree with your POV on this, Tom.
My problem with the situation is the same problem I had forty-some years ago, with those that got us into Vietnam.
There was an opportunity then, on the political level, to not involve ourselves. Then, as now, we chose otherwise.
Once the Dogs of War have been unleashed, we should not expect them to be other than what they are - and we should not expect war to be other than what it is.
The military does not send men to war.
Politicians send men to war.
It is the politicians who pretend that there is a difference between Isaac and Ishmael.
I wish only that those who send us to war were forced to experience the results of their decisions - in a very personal and immediate way.
If they would send young men to bleed ,then let them bleed along with them.
If they would send young men to die, then let them die along with them.
Wars would be less frequent - and the Wreck would have more peaceful things to contemplate.
Regards, Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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Tom,
I started to snip some of your message to preserve bandwidth. But, dammit, there ain't none of it that can be cut.
Wish all people recognized, deep down in their gut, that it's not the war-mongering military that causes war. All they do is suffer, bleed and die. I don't think I've ever met a combat Marine or Soldier who wasn't convinced that a shooting war should be a little bit beyond the absolute last resort.
Need to get off this subject before the dreams start. Want to talk about woodworking?

Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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Tom Watson writes:
> wholeheartedly agree with your POV on this, Tom.

<snip>
Everytime this discussion raises up, I'm reminded of the following:
Old men start wars.
Young men fight them and also do the dying.
--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
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Oh, come on. You can't be serious.

to
Unceremoniously? What did you expect? There wasn't any ceremony either when the army threw a nearly dead prisoner off a bridge.

Do you really think that al-Queada was in Iraq during Saddam's regime?

Nothing has changed. If anything, there's an even greater public consensus that the justification for the invasion was all a big lie.
Any "terrorists" that are in Iraq now are only there because they're fighting the occupation. If a foreign country invaded the US, and you fought against the occupation, would that make you a terrorist too?
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Yes. Keep thinking about it mp, you may finally understand it and only a year after everyone else.
So you think that we went into Afghanistan and completely threw al-Qaida into chaos. And then, we turn our attention to Iraq. So, the logical thing for al-Qaida to do is to pick up and follow us to continue fighting? If we were suddenly distracted by an area where al-Qaida was not, why would they go there? Come on, give us a break.
Frank
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thing
we
Neither you nor anyone else can prove that Saddam had links to Bin Laden or his organization, though many have tried.
The lies and propaganda that the WH used to justify the invasion has been proven to be false. All of it. No WMD's, no links to al-Queada, no threat of mushroom clouds on American soil.
What I find amazing is that people like yourself keep believing all this crap in the absence of any hard evidence. That's changing, as recent polls are showing that more and more American citizens are realizing they've been hoodwinked. Some day you too may come to that realization.
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The link is Al-Zawaheri - he was in Iraq receiving aid, support, and medical treatment prior to 9/11.
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