OT: (US) Corporations are powerful entities

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On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:16:56 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

He might also try using reason to refute other people's arguments, instead of just calling them idiots, but I'm not holding my breath.
For instance, he made no rebuttal to my point that the Alien and Sedition Acts represented an early case of ignoring the Constitution. But I doubt a valid rebuttal is possible, so he resorts to name calling instead of admitting that he could be wrong. Ah, well, this post will undoubtedly initiate another one of his ad hominem attacks.
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On 10/23/2012 5:46 AM, Han wrote:

You obviously need that course. The Constitution does not say that. The Supremes said that in an early court case - Marbury v. Madison. There's absolutely nothing in the Constitution itself that spells out who has the last word.

Your opinions on the subject are irrelevant.
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Since it is part of the interpretation of the Constitution, and hasn't been challenged for quite a while, it is as much gospel as the first article of the Constitution. Moreover, it can become almost a vicious circle (there have been many cases where Congress passed a law to "redress" an opinion of the SCOTUS - signed by a president - which then later was again ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS). Therefore it is likely a good thing that it wasn't specifically specified in the Constitution.

I disagree (obviously), and the fact you react means there is at least some relevance.
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So nothing in the business world ever rebounds without political help, is that it? Seriously, are you that deluded and/or spellbound by this guy? My opinion is that the economy would have rebounded far more quickly if the gov't had gotten the hell out of the way and LET IT.

I think the fed might guide the states (if that's possible) in an outline for minimum coverage, then leave it up to the states to get it done. As Patton said, "Don't tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."
And TPINO is "Tea Party In Name Only".
-- They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. -- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist
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Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. I don't think that the last word has been written about the causes of the financial collapse of 2008. It has been argued that this type of crash has far longer-lasting effects than say a savings and loan debacle. I would have been afraid that simply letting the bankers fix the system would have led us to a far worse economic collapse than what has happened now.

YES!!! I would have been for a minimum coverage system as well, and let individuals purchase their own "collision" on top of the statutory coverage. But then you would need to make sure that the individual will indeed pay for needed healthcare over and above covered conditions. That isn't easy if for instance a kidney transplant or dialysis isn't part of statutory coverage, and Joe Shmoe finds he needs dialysis or a kidney. What to do if he can't pay? Let him die? Whether he is 95 or 35?

Now you got me, what's that?
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Nope, prolly not.

As it was, the bankers were asking "What do we do with this money you're throwing at us?" and they gave their CEOs gigantic bonuses using TAXPAYER MONEY.

Guidelines are necessary, but States can usually do things better than the Feds, and for a lot less money.

What we really need is to rip down the existing medical care infrastructure and start over. Doctors in the system are all on salary: no $35,000 per hour fees for surgery allowed. Hospitals lose the $40M lobby remodels and that money instead goes into paying salaries, making people well, etc. This in turn reduces the costs for insurance companies and our rates drop dramatically. Healthcare is now affordable, as it is in other countries.

It means that anyone can say "I'm a member of the Tea Party" but then act like a bloomin' Democrat instead. ;) Watch what they do, not what they say. Remember, these are CONgresscritters we're talking about. They lie through their teeth.
-- They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. -- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist
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On 10/23/2012 3:40 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Would you provide documentation for the 35,000/hr.
Lobby remodels are mandated by the government to incorporate their latest ideas of safety, and other such things.
One of the things people don't understand whether your are work with the local contractor, auto mechanic or a major corporation, is that what they are charged is based on the total cost of maintaining the company, not the technician or mechanic doing the work.
There are the obvious expense such as the person doing the works wages and the expense for his insurance, pensions, and vacation However these are not the only cost to the company There are fixed cost that have to be recovered such as cost of buying and maintaining the building and equipment, supplies like toilet paper and paper towels, administrative cost for the people in the office and the equipment they need, insurances, taxes, regulatory expenses and the like.
If I had 4 technicians I would calculate the total hour those technicians would work in a year (4 X 2080) I would then take the total fixed cost and divided by the total technician time available, I would then add the fixed cost per hour to the variable cost per hour, and charge the customer that amount to fix his car in the garage,test his sample, etc..
This was always significantly more the the person doing the work was getting.
Personally I could justify the 34,000 per hour charge. If the X ray machine cost 136000 and I only used it 4 times per year, I would have to charge 34000 per use. (An extremely simplified example.)
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A meaningless example. For one, the X-ray machine has a useful life of well over a decade. Secondly, you don't account for depreciation.

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On 10/23/2012 4:32 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Section 179 ... "depreciation" may not be necessary if a capital equipment expenditure that did not exceed the statutory amount and/or the business had a net operating loss for the year. ;)
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On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:22:19 -0400, Keith Nuttle

That was a SWAG from reports I've heard and things I've read, like $165k for a 2-day quintuple bypass with 2 hours in surgery.
BUT:
My sister in CA was billed $22,600 for a laparoscopic appendectomy. She was in the hospital for 3 hours, 1 hour of that in surgery.
My oral surgeon made $915 for 14 minutes work, or $3660/hr. OK, if half that goes to the center, it's still farkin' outrageous.
http://tinyurl.com/8f8j2dk
http://www.medicalcostadvocate.com/blog/?tag=outrageous-healthcare-charges
Wow! This is interesting. Here's what things should (?) cost: http://www.healthcarebluebook.com/page_Default.aspx

Most lobby remodels are for bling, not safety.

Of course it is, and that's expected.

Not to me, you couldn't! Besides, if you did that, nobody would (could?) use your service. Where's your depreciation curve, buddy? Stretched out over 7-10 years, that's as low as $3,400 a pop, which is still gouging horribly, Dr. Nuttle. ;)
-- They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. -- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist
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That of course should have been illegal, and be clawed back. I hope your statement isn't really true, but I don't know.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Overall, Medicare has been relatively successfull in keeping costs low and still give quality care.

As it works in Holland, as I found out when I needed trauma surgery on my broken leg.

I like that quote ...
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Googlit, Han. IT HAPPENED!

No, Medicare has been successful at reducing rates, not making costs low. There's an extremely large difference.

Right!
I get these great sigs from the Motivational Quote of the Day emails at the rate of 4 a day. http://www.quotationspage.com/mqotd.html It's a free service. (Thanks, Laura!) She has a downloadable library similar to Gutenberg's online, too.
-- They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. -- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist
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Han wrote:

During the first six years of the Bush administration, we got out of a recession, saw unemployment drop below five percent, almost zero inflation, 28 consecutive quarters of economic growth, and had the DJIA climb above 12,000. All this in spite of two wars, 9-11, and Katrina.
Then the Democrats took over Congress and almost everything went to hell.
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That sounds like the guy who had jumped out of the 17th floor window of the Manhattan VA. Passing by the canteen on the second floor he was heard to say "so far so good". Then they put some controls on the windows so the "looneys" on the 17th floor (or anywhere else) couldn't jump anymore.
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On 10/22/2012 09:31 AM, Han wrote:

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gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
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Seems there was something like a depression in early 2009. Since then the DJ has clawed back to its 2007 high, despite the terrible policies of Obama, or thanks to his good shepherding of the economy. <http://www.the-privateer.com/chart/dow-long.html#top This latest Bush-caused depression (my take) is so severe because it was a financial depression, see <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/opinion/krugman-the-secret-of-our-non - success.html>
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On 10/22/2012 12:27 PM, Han wrote:

maintain 13600. If you look at the 35 year trend line the market should be about 19000, vs what it is today 13600. There are very few measures of the economy that indicate a recovery. Most indicators show there is no recovery, as such.
Ref: http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ei=WYCFUKDlPJyElgPN5gE
(Recovery means back to where it should be. If you fall into a hole recovery means getting out of the hole, and walking away from it; not laying on the edge of the hole wondering if you can get up. )
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I completely agree. Crash of 1929: It took until WWII, 12 years later, before the economy was humming again, and that was then due to enorous deficit spending to get geared up for war. One has to realize that the current recovery is from an economic debacle (financial collapse) on an almost same level as the 1929 crash. It wasn't "just" a housing bubble. And your numbers are right (14100 vs 13600). I believe though tht the longer term trend is up. It will really get up if and when the fiscal cliff has been avoided, people with moderate incomes will have spending money again, and taxes will more nearly cover outlays.
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On 10/22/2012 2:12 PM, Han wrote:

While I think that the economy will return to the 35 year trend line, (It nearly has) we will never recover the 35% lost of our capital that occurred in the weeks following pelosi's renege on the home loans and the first three months of the obama administration. the Dow dropped nearly 45%
Back in the 1980? when International Harvester disappeared. They had a huge facility in Fort Wayne Indiana that was complete shut down. Thousands of people were left with out jobs. The housing market collapsed, as people fled the city for jobs, or could not make the payment on their mortgages. At nearly the same time Freuhauf Trailer also disappeared from the city.
After all of these years, the city has not recovered the loss of those years. Even today after all of these years the price of houses in Fort Wayne are less than comparable houses in other parts of the country. Existing home sales are the same.
At that time the Inter nation Truck and Freuhauf Trailer were nearly standard for the trucking industry. When was the last time you saw either.
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Yes, I wonder too. But I do see Fruehauf (sp?) and Volvo trucks on the highways now. As far as those other brands, you don't see DeSoto anymore either, but Fiat came back ... I really liked y second hand Fiat 1100 ...
So while we may have lost some things forever, others have come back to replace them. I do feel sorry for the people who lost their jobs (and perhaps their pensions). I also know people who worked for Lehman and left before Lehman went belly up. One cashed in his vested stock in time, another one didn't. Both were lucky and now have fulfilling jobs - adapting in the American way ... Many other people still need new jobs and/or skills.
That leaves another group with big disadvantages - our returning soldiers. They have difficulties finding jobs and (more importantly) difficulties getting used to civilian life. I think we owe them more than just gratitude.
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