OT: Too funny not to share...

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What round is too weak for deer?
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Well, actually, Mike's an excellent shot -- when he's calm. :-) When he has a 200-lb 8-point buck in his crosshairs, he isn't always calm. He is on a range, though. (Shot competitively the whole ten years he was in the Navy.) The first year that pistols were legal for deer hunting here, I went with him to the firing range when he sighted in. He set up a standard 25-foot pistol target on the hundred-**yard** range and shot the black out of it. When he was done tweaking the scope, you could cover all six rounds with a quarter.

I sure wish they'd allow rifles here. Some of our regs are insane: my BIL has a pistol with an 18" barrel in .243 Winchester. I have a rifle with a 22" barrel, also in .243 Win. His pistol is a legal weapon for deer in Indiana. My rifle is not -- but it *is* legal for coyote, and, incredibly, for *squirrel* (for which the rule is "any legal weapon"). IOW, it's legal to stand on the ground and point a 3300-fps rifle up into a tree to shoot a squirrel, but illegal to sit in the tree and point the same weapon down at the ground to shoot a deer. How much sense does that make?
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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He's more than just an excellent shot - he's magical. That's well beyond the accuracy of that round... even for a competitive shooter.
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-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

I've seen the .454 shoot sub moa from a T/C Encore. I understand that the Freedom Arms revolver will come close as well.
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"Praise Jebus!" - H. J. Simpson

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My FA .454 is right at MOA from the bags with a 4X Leupold on it. That's with tailored handloads, not hunting loads. Those are more like 2 MOA, but that's close enough for my needs with hogs. I rarely touch one off at a target more than 50 metres away, maybe 75 if I've got a solid rest and am shooting over flat ground. What I have found is that a hit generally knocks the 200 - 300 pounders down One 450 pound boar took 3 rounds in the chest plate at about 25 metres before he droped. The first 2 just seemed to surprise him. I was sure surpised! 300 GR Barnes X solids at ~ 1500 FPS (29 Gr of 296 under the bullet) generates around 1500 ft-lbs but it really didin't seem to phase him. All 3 bullets penetrated the chest cavity and lodoged in the hind quarters, so he got all the energy. I think he just stood there and bled out.

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That's about what I'd expect from a good handloaded, precision load... in the right gun. 1 MOA makes for a pattern of 6" when shooting a 6-shooter, worst case. Very hard to believe a 44Mag handgun shooting subMOA, even from the bags with precision loads. Very easy to believe a shooter with those skills, but not with that round/gun combination.
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-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

1 MOA, by definition, makes for a group of 1.047197580733 inches at 100 yds. (Most of us just round it to 1") Doesn't matter how many cylinders your gun has, or how many rounds it can hold in a magazine. A revolver that is producing 6" groups is shooting around 6 MOA.
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Or in other words, just slightly larger than a quarter. <g>

To clarify: 6" groups at 100 yds = 6 MOA
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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wrote:

To the best of my knowledge though, the 44Mag in a handgun is *not* a 1 MOA weapon. It is very hard to imagine a 44Mag shooting sub MOA. Like I said - I have no trouble believing your brother-in-law(?) is as highly skilled as you say, but I can't get past the thought of him placing 44Mags that tight. He's gone well past the gun's capability at that point.
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-Mike-
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Yes - SWMBO's brother.

FWIW, it runs in the family. SWMBO brought down a deer with a single shot in the neck, fired from a 16ga shotgun -- at *ninety* yards. And she shoots a bow more accurately off-hand than I can with sights -- and I can hit a deck of cards at 20 yards if I'm in practice.

I think you're underestimating the potential performance of handloads that have been carefully tailored to a single, specific weapon. He's tried dozens of different bullets, and hundreds of combinations of bullet + primer + powder, in an effort to get the maximum possible accuracy. And he's been working at it for a long, long time.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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wrote:>

Around here we'd consider that to be acceptable shooting. I really like 16 guage shot guns except for the increasing unavailability of ammo. I shoot 12 guage when I use a shot gun, but the 16 was a very under-rated gun in my opinion. Most of our deer shots around here are under 50 yards, due to the terrain/growth, but one can get 100 yard shots from time to time. We've all dropped deer at those ranges with both shotguns and rifles. I've not pushed my handgun that far, and probably wouldn't but I'd probably go out to 75 with it. My bow shots I try to keep under 40 yards, though I practice at 50. I can group fletch to fletch at 50 yards consistently, but like you I stand somewhat in awe of my daughter who does it without the benefit of releases, sights, etc. Strictly an instinctive shooter. Not me - I've got the stuff on my bow.

I reload all of my ammo except my shotgun ammo, so I have an appreciation for precision loads. There is a limit to what a gun can do with even the most precise ammo though. The Super Blackhawk is a great gun - probably one of the best in my opinion, but it's not a sub-MOA gun.
I should probably go on record as saying that I can't really dispute your claim Doug, since I've never met this fellow, never seen him shoot, etc. I've learned a long time ago not to rely solely on what "should be" in the world. It's more that I would be surprised and indeed impressed by anyone that could group sub-MOA with a 44mag handgun. That would be one unique individual.
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-Mike-
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There was a time when it was almost impossible to find. Not so any more. It isn't as easy to find as 12ga, but there's a lot more of it available than there was 12-15 years ago.

I entirely agree.

I *have* to have it on mine -- I'm doing well to hit a pizza box at 30yd offhand. :-(

He definitely is that. He took the test to join Mensa about 15 years ago... IQ measured in the upper 160s. That runs in the family, too. :-)
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Yes, of course you are correct in what you say. I was trying to avoid a long dissertation, and resorted to a shortened commentary that was based on thoughts going through my head while I typed. 1 MOA is going to give you error +- 1", so the real potential error is 2" hole to hole. In my mind as I typed, I was thinking of 10 spots up to 4" in diameter. I added the 2" error to my envisioned 4" 10 spot to arrive at the quoted 6". Maybe not untypical for a lot of shooters, but as you pointed out, not accurate in the context of my post. Don't ask me to explain it better than that - my mind is not something you want to fool around trying to figure out.
I mentioned 6 shooter to differentiate it from a long gun. It is indeed much harder to achieve 1 MOA from a 6 or 7 inch barrel than it is from a rifle.
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-Mike-
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Correction again. God - I'm just going to call it a night and go to bed... 1" center to center. Not 2" hole to hole. Edge to edge (outer) is going to be a little less than 2".
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-Mike-
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I don't think so...

Easy enough for me to believe: I watched it happen. I was watching on a 30x spotting scope as one of his rounds drilled right through the "0" in the "10" in the center of the target. Whether you believe me or not is of course up to you, but I'd suggest that you might want to recheck your math before you decide it's not possible.

Again, you may want to check your math. And my BIL has been using the same pistol for some 25 - 30 years now, so he's pretty familiar with his weapon, and he's had plenty of time to get his handloads tailored just the way he wants them. I certainly wouldn't claim to be able to do that myself, but I did watch it happen.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Apples and oranges. The 44Mag shot from a handgun is going to be one tough thing to achieve sub MOA, even in the hands of an expert competitive shooter. Even with precision loads. This is a Ruger Super Blackhawk he was shooting through. A good gun, but not sub MOA. Out of a rifle the 44Mag has a pretty hard time making sub MOA.
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-Mike-
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He hand-loads his own rounds. He's been tweaking everything -- experimenting with different primers, different powders, and so forth -- for years, customizing the load to the weapon. After he finished sighting in, he let me have a go at it. I'm no better than an average shot, really, and it was the first time I'd ever fired that gun (or any .44, for that matter), but I still managed to put two rounds in the ten ring, and all but one inside the nine.
All this was done seated at a bench, with sandbags, using a Ruger Super Red Hawk with a Leupold 9x rifle scope.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com says...

Sounds like an edict by the Village Idiot. (Unless they made those rules to stop the village idiot from shooting things beyond his event horizon). Nuts.
;-P
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It certainly doesn't stop the Village Idiots from shooting people beyond their event horizon, as you put it -- we have plenty of idiots who don't bother to wear safety orange, or wait for daylight before they start shooting.
I really don't know what they were thinking; a lot of the rules don't make any sense at all. I commented on some of the weapons insanity in another post. Then there's the issue of safety clothing. The law says one or more of (hat, cap, coat, vest, or coveralls), solid hunter orange in color. So forest camo from the forehead down, with a solid orange baseball cap, is OK. And blaze orange *camo* over your entire body is not. (Yes, there is such a thing as blaze orange camo; deer don't see that color. And as long as I don't move, they don't see me.)
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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