Everthing else so far discussed aside, keep in mind that ethanol is an
alcohol (i.e. "oxegenated hydrocarbon"), the use of which in gasoline
is primarily designed to decrease greenhouse emmisons (ie.carbon
dioxide). It is NOT supposed to replace the BTU value of the other
stuff (i.e. alkanes, alkenes, etc) of gasoline, especially as a
cost-effective measure, no matter what stupid fuck-head 'dubya has to
PS: I know this industry
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:48 -0600, "Leon"
Has no bearing on whether it is end result used for -- namely, a fuel
replacement, not simply additive.
We have much more corn than we have sugar, though...although that will,
as somebody else already noted, transition to other sources w/ time...
As an aside:
Ethonal, aka "grain alcohol", is the stuff in wine, beer, whiskey,
vodka, all kinda' booze, &tc. Its the stuff that gets us drunk, or
tipsy, &tc. To transport said product from Kansas, Nebraska (aka
"Gateway to Kansas"), to refineries in places, east, south, and west,
they either have to pay the licquor tax, or de-nature the product so
it can't be used as drink.
Guess waht the use to denare the ethanol for bulk shipments.
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:48 -0600, "Leon"
I don't believe that is so for industrial ethanol -- I'll ask, but never
heard there's anything done but ship product (a neighbor is also a
principal in the largest production facility in KS just up the road
which just started production in December.)
There _are_ somewhat onerous rules on vintners/distillers in the state
regarding out-of-state sales, but I'm virtually positive they don't
apply to the large-scale ethanol production facilities.
As an aside, there's legislation pending for next session to further
relax the out-of-state sale restrictions as well.
Do know that the stuff sold to you and I is denatured with something which
forms an azeotrope with EtOH, and can't be distilled away differentially.
Rather suspect that gasoline denaturing would be some sort of a loophole
method easily reversed.
That's at the retail pump though where the blending has occurred. (Or,
are you talking about on-the-shelf sales, maybe, not fuel just occurred
to me? That, certainly is so, but that's a completely different
I'll ask Nick what they ship from their facility...
If you do the math you quickly realize that grain based ethanol is a
non sustainable operation.
Basically, there is a very limited net energy gain.
Thanks to ADM, ConAgra and Cargil, there will be a short term gain for
the agriculture industry, but the bubble will break.
As one of my suppliers said years ago, "Lew, we will never see another
grass roots refinery built in our lifetime."
If somebody wanted to build a new refinery, my guess it would take at
least 10-15 years just to get the necessary permits and the local
citizens to allow construction in their back yard..
The last refinery built in california sat idle for years due to legal
Finally, some smart oil company attorney figured out that if they
defied the courts and opened the refinery, they could pay the fines
and still make money.
Finally opened refinery, didn't pay fines.
The article I read indicated that about 95% of the U.S. farm land would have
to be devoted to growing corn and then,, where would we get out food? ;~)
Yeah, probably too many politics involved.
I think, believe, that those smart oil company attourneys decided to merge
with other oil companies. Let's make it so there are only half as many oil
companies as there are now, 1990. Now that all the major oil companys in
the U.S. have merged the competition has basicly been cut in half. Funny
how the gasoline prices have been rising ever since the mergers began. I'm
betting that with mergers/down sizing of "big oil" some refinerys got moth
America's ethanol policies are stupid for many reasons but primarily
because the cost is augmented with subsidized corn and corn-based
ethanol is more environmentally damaging than the product it
replaces. But here's the *real* reason why this policy is
detrimental: IT'S DRIVING UP THE PRICE OF BEER!!!
The Economist reports that hop growers in the Pacific Northwest are
turning their fields over to corn in order to sell in a hot market
driven by the ethanol boom. The magazine reports that hop harvests are
down by as much as 50%. Small brewers - those who make the beers that
really matter - suffer the most. Ethanol now suppresses what was the
fastest growing segment of the beer market. The next brewery that
opens in your town will probably be a chain, not an independent. At a
time when America was finally recovering from the effects of
Prohibition, I fear the McDonaldsization of local beer markets. A
Gordon Biersch in every town is certainly better than selections
limited to Bud, Coors and Miller but we were headed in the direction
of genuine local beer selections. It's time to rethink ethanol.
Beer with corn in it? ------>>>DO NOT WANT. Wheat? (Weiss Bier)
suuure, but no corn or rice..nooo.
Now why would the hop harvests be down? Surely they don't use hops for
alcohol manufacturing would they?
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