OT: The value of Ethanol

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Everthing else so far discussed aside, keep in mind that ethanol is an alcohol (i.e. "oxegenated hydrocarbon"), the use of which in gasoline is primarily designed to decrease greenhouse emmisons (ie.carbon dioxide). It is NOT supposed to replace the BTU value of the other stuff (i.e. alkanes, alkenes, etc) of gasoline, especially as a cost-effective measure, no matter what stupid fuck-head 'dubya has to say.
-Zz
PS: I know this industry
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:48 -0600, "Leon"

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Zz Yzx wrote:

Might tell that to the Brazilians.
Ethanal was about 20% less than spot gasoline market last time I looked...
--
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Now exactly how many is a Brazilian? ;~) I could not help that.
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The Brazilians have a little advantage in that they use sugar cane. Much more energy in that than the Government sponsored corn.
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yugami wrote:

Has no bearing on whether it is end result used for -- namely, a fuel replacement, not simply additive.
We have much more corn than we have sugar, though...although that will, as somebody else already noted, transition to other sources w/ time...
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As an aside:
Ethonal, aka "grain alcohol", is the stuff in wine, beer, whiskey, vodka, all kinda' booze, &tc. Its the stuff that gets us drunk, or tipsy, &tc. To transport said product from Kansas, Nebraska (aka "Gateway to Kansas"), to refineries in places, east, south, and west, they either have to pay the licquor tax, or de-nature the product so it can't be used as drink.
Guess waht the use to denare the ethanol for bulk shipments.
-ZZ
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:39:48 -0600, "Leon"

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Methanol (wood alcohol). It gets metabolized to formaldehyde in your system. It's the formaldehyde that makes you sick.
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Hey, I just made this thread ON TOPIC!! :)
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Gasoline?
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Yup.
-Zz
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:18:21 GMT, "Leon"

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Zz Yzx wrote: ...

I don't believe that is so for industrial ethanol -- I'll ask, but never heard there's anything done but ship product (a neighbor is also a principal in the largest production facility in KS just up the road which just started production in December.)
There _are_ somewhat onerous rules on vintners/distillers in the state regarding out-of-state sales, but I'm virtually positive they don't apply to the large-scale ethanol production facilities.
As an aside, there's legislation pending for next session to further relax the out-of-state sale restrictions as well.
--
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Do know that the stuff sold to you and I is denatured with something which forms an azeotrope with EtOH, and can't be distilled away differentially. Rather suspect that gasoline denaturing would be some sort of a loophole method easily reversed.
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George wrote: ...

That's at the retail pump though where the blending has occurred. (Or, are you talking about on-the-shelf sales, maybe, not fuel just occurred to me? That, certainly is so, but that's a completely different market/distribution stream.)
I'll ask Nick what they ship from their facility...
--
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"Leon" wrote:

that
corn
If you do the math you quickly realize that grain based ethanol is a non sustainable operation.
Basically, there is a very limited net energy gain.
Thanks to ADM, ConAgra and Cargil, there will be a short term gain for the agriculture industry, but the bubble will break.

less oil

As one of my suppliers said years ago, "Lew, we will never see another grass roots refinery built in our lifetime."
If somebody wanted to build a new refinery, my guess it would take at least 10-15 years just to get the necessary permits and the local citizens to allow construction in their back yard..
The last refinery built in california sat idle for years due to legal hassles
Finally, some smart oil company attorney figured out that if they defied the courts and opened the refinery, they could pay the fines and still make money.
Finally opened refinery, didn't pay fines.
Lew
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The article I read indicated that about 95% of the U.S. farm land would have to be devoted to growing corn and then,, where would we get out food? ;~)

Yeah, probably too many politics involved.

I think, believe, that those smart oil company attourneys decided to merge with other oil companies. Let's make it so there are only half as many oil companies as there are now, 1990. Now that all the major oil companys in the U.S. have merged the competition has basicly been cut in half. Funny how the gasoline prices have been rising ever since the mergers began. I'm betting that with mergers/down sizing of "big oil" some refinerys got moth balled too.
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"Leon" wrote:

merge
many oil

companys in

Funny
began.
Go back and take a look at 1911 history when they broke up Std Oil and a few other monopolies.
Clayton anti-trust comes to mind.

got moth

Some are so obsolete they need to be closed and then rebuilt but tax incentives are not yet in place.
Lew
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America's ethanol policies are stupid for many reasons but primarily because the cost is augmented with subsidized corn and corn-based ethanol is more environmentally damaging than the product it replaces. But here's the *real* reason why this policy is detrimental: IT'S DRIVING UP THE PRICE OF BEER!!!
The Economist reports that hop growers in the Pacific Northwest are turning their fields over to corn in order to sell in a hot market driven by the ethanol boom. The magazine reports that hop harvests are down by as much as 50%. Small brewers - those who make the beers that really matter - suffer the most. Ethanol now suppresses what was the fastest growing segment of the beer market. The next brewery that opens in your town will probably be a chain, not an independent. At a time when America was finally recovering from the effects of Prohibition, I fear the McDonaldsization of local beer markets. A Gordon Biersch in every town is certainly better than selections limited to Bud, Coors and Miller but we were headed in the direction of genuine local beer selections. It's time to rethink ethanol.
Cheers, Jeff
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But here's the *real* reason why this policy is

Read in the press that the folks in Mexico, where petrol is plentiful were peddling their corn for other than tortillas because the price was better. Mutatis mutandis....
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Beer with corn in it? ------>>>DO NOT WANT. Wheat? (Weiss Bier) suuure, but no corn or rice..nooo.
Now why would the hop harvests be down? Surely they don't use hops for alcohol manufacturing would they?
Just asking.
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Now why would the hop harvests be down? Surely they don't use hops for alcohol manufacturing would they?
Just asking.
Reading might have done it for you.
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