OT: The value of Ethanol

[GarageWoodworks]

Hey, I just made this thread ON TOPIC!! :)

[yugami]

Theres a lot of good possibilities for this. If nothing else small plants could be built for individual cities. My city has free yard waste pickup. Think of all the free energy that could generate to run public services.

[yugami]

The Brazilians have a little advantage in that they use sugar cane. Much more energy in that than the Government sponsored corn.

[DouginUtah]

They get about 19.2 gallons of gasoline out of a barrel of light, sweet crude (42 gallons).

[GarageWoodworks]

I take it you mean CH4 (methane) and not CH3 (free radical).

But aren't we talking about liquids in this case right (GASOLINE)? Density of octane is 0.69 g/mL. Density of crude (varies from oil field to oil field) 0.85 g/mL.

1 pound of crude (metric conversion, Ugh! 1lb = 453.5 g) = 657 mL = 0.17 gallon 1 pound of octane = 533.5 mL = 0.14 gallon

If you could convert ALL crude to octane (and you can't, you lose some to volatiles) you would only get 0.03 gallons more.

(Considering ONLY straight chain hydrocarbons here) Larger hydrocarbons (than octane) would have smaller densities and the difference would be even less. Smaller hydrocarbons than octane (that are still a liquid at 25 oC) include pentane (d = 0.626 g/mL), hexane (d = 0.655), and finally heptane (d = 0.684 g/mL).

Considering the smallest hydrocarbon that is still a gas (pentane d = 0.626) gives 724 mL

1 pound of pentane yields 0.19 gallons for a difference of (from crude) 0.02 gallons.

So in order to make an 'marginal' increase in volume per unit weight, you would have to convert most of your crude into the lighter (and still liquid) hydrocarbons like pentane.

[GarageWoodworks]

Above should have read:

Larger hydrocarbons (than octane) would have LARGER densities and the difference would be even less.

[dpb]

Has no bearing on whether it is end result used for -- namely, a fuel replacement, not simply additive.

We have much more corn than we have sugar, though...although that will, as somebody else already noted, transition to other sources w/ time...

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[Lew Hodgett]

If you do the math you quickly realize that grain based ethanol is a non sustainable operation.

Basically, there is a very limited net energy gain.

Thanks to ADM, ConAgra and Cargil, there will be a short term gain for the agriculture industry, but the bubble will break.

As one of my suppliers said years ago, "Lew, we will never see another grass roots refinery built in our lifetime."

If somebody wanted to build a new refinery, my guess it would take at least 10-15 years just to get the necessary permits and the local citizens to allow construction in their back yard..

The last refinery built in california sat idle for years due to legal hassles

Finally, some smart oil company attorney figured out that if they defied the courts and opened the refinery, they could pay the fines and still make money.

Finally opened refinery, didn't pay fines.

Lew

[Robatoy]

A 42 gallon barrel of crude will yield approx 44 gallons of product. But it sure as f*ck isn't all gasoline. 50% if it really sweet crude max! So, as usual, you're wrong, John.

BTW, have you ever been to Israel?

r

[Leon]

The article I read indicated that about 95% of the U.S. farm land would have to be devoted to growing corn and then,, where would we get out food? ;~)

Yeah, probably too many politics involved.

I think, believe, that those smart oil company attourneys decided to merge with other oil companies. Let's make it so there are only half as many oil companies as there are now, 1990. Now that all the major oil companys in the U.S. have merged the competition has basicly been cut in half. Funny how the gasoline prices have been rising ever since the mergers began. I'm betting that with mergers/down sizing of "big oil" some refinerys got moth balled too.

[Lew Hodgett]

companys in

began.

Go back and take a look at 1911 history when they broke up Std Oil and a few other monopolies.

Clayton anti-trust comes to mind.

Some are so obsolete they need to be closed and then rebuilt but tax incentives are not yet in place.

Lew

[George]

Bummer! Here I thought there was some cold fusion as well as hot cracking going on to make one barrel of crude feed a multitude....

[Artemus]

"Leon" wrote [snip]>

Your simply repeating this statement does not make it true, nor does it seem that anyone has said anything that has altered your belief in it. How about you provide something credible and convince the rest of us that your belief is correct?

Art

[Jeff]

America's ethanol policies are stupid for many reasons but primarily because the cost is augmented with subsidized corn and corn-based ethanol is more environmentally damaging than the product it replaces. But here's the *real* reason why this policy is detrimental: IT'S DRIVING UP THE PRICE OF BEER!!!

The Economist reports that hop growers in the Pacific Northwest are turning their fields over to corn in order to sell in a hot market driven by the ethanol boom. The magazine reports that hop harvests are down by as much as 50%. Small brewers - those who make the beers that really matter - suffer the most. Ethanol now suppresses what was the fastest growing segment of the beer market. The next brewery that opens in your town will probably be a chain, not an independent. At a time when America was finally recovering from the effects of Prohibition, I fear the McDonaldsization of local beer markets. A Gordon Biersch in every town is certainly better than selections limited to Bud, Coors and Miller but we were headed in the direction of genuine local beer selections. It's time to rethink ethanol.

Cheers, Jeff

[Leon]

How about you do the contrary. I am convinced and that is what matters to me.

[Robatoy]

To put it mildly

Toss a few loaves of bread and a few fish to that formula while we're at it?

[George]

Read in the press that the folks in Mexico, where petrol is plentiful were peddling their corn for other than tortillas because the price was better. Mutatis mutandis....

[Zz Yzx]

Yup.

-Zz

[Robatoy]

Beer with corn in it? ------>>>DO NOT WANT. Wheat? (Weiss Bier) suuure, but no corn or rice..nooo.

Now why would the hop harvests be down? Surely they don't use hops for alcohol manufacturing would they?

Just asking.

[dpb]

Zz Yzx wrote: ...

I don't believe that is so for industrial ethanol -- I'll ask, but never heard there's anything done but ship product (a neighbor is also a principal in the largest production facility in KS just up the road which just started production in December.)

There _are_ somewhat onerous rules on vintners/distillers in the state regarding out-of-state sales, but I'm virtually positive they don't apply to the large-scale ethanol production facilities.

As an aside, there's legislation pending for next session to further relax the out-of-state sale restrictions as well.

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