OT: The secret to doing your taxes is

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On 15 Apr 2005 06:25:18 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com"

I assume you are replying to this:

My point is that the savings are so small that the ultimate gain to the taxpayer is probably on the order of a fraction of one percent - call it maybe $20 a year that you might save in lower costs. Realize also that adding a sales tax will create *more* compliance costs since there are more retail outlets than there are manufacturers. In the end the guy paying the taxes will be neither better nor worse, we will just be dealing with a different system.
-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Looks like stuff from this site. A touch distorted I gather... http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/materials/comparison.html
It also looks like the stuff the NDP peddle here in Canada. Just another "New Democracy" I guess.
You will find similar ideas here. These ideas keep interesting company. http://www.ndp.ca /
More proof that woodworking is far more interesting than politics.
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Same as any other tax--it hurts one group worse than it hurts another. HR25 would hurts the people who are barely getting buy--under the current system they don't pay much if any income tax, but they'd pay a higher percentage of their income in sales tax than would someone who is well off, and it might make the difference between "making it" and going broke.
In this case they try to correct that by giving each person a monthly rebate in the amount of the tax rate times the poverty level. How well that will work I have no idea, but it looks like almost as big a boondoggle as the IRS itself.
It is not possible to develop a fair tax code--anyone who thinks that any given tax code is fair is deluding himself.
--
--John
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J. Clarke wrote:

Your premise is wrong, therefore your conclusions are flawed:
Your implict assumption is that there is nothing that can be done about "the poor" - that poverty is a societal constant both in fact and numbers. This is flatly refuted by the last 200+ years of Western society wherein the per capita poverty rates have been steadily falling as a direct result of Capital Markets, Industrialization, and Personal Liberty.
There are two kinds of poor people: the Intentional Poor - people whose poverty is a direct consquence of their ongoing bad choices and behavior, and the Unintentional Poor - people whose poverty is a matter of circumstance, not their actions. The Intentional Poor remain so generation after generation, and I couldn't care less about them - they get what they deserve. The Unintentional Poor move up and out of poverty, given any reasonable opportunity to do so.
If the tax structure quit punishing the most productive and wealthy members of society - say with a flat sales tax coupled with mandatory balanced bugets and a significant reduction in goverment spending - there would be a non-inflationary economic boom the likes of which have not been seen since the Industrial Revolution. Productive/wealthy people either create new businesses, invest the money, spend the money, or save it. In all these cases, there is a net increase in private sector growth which leads to new jobs and wealth creation ... all of which benefits the Unintentional Poor (nothing will help the Intentional Poor, nor do we have any moral obligation to even bother trying - they are getting precisely what they've earned).
The money being peed away by the various Government Swine (and their pigglet constituents that feed at the trough) is gutting economic growth. The rate of government expenditure is growing a significantly greater rate than the rate of overall economic growth (http://www.freetheworld.com/papers/Gwartney_Holcombe_Lawson.pdf ) - i.e., The percentage of the GDP absorbed by Government is growing. (At the current rate, the day will come when the Government consumes the entire GDP - we'll all be working for the Political Hacks.)
This means that money that would be productively used to create new businesses, wealth, and *jobs* is, instead, consumed by a Leviathan Government, which produces almost nothing useful other than getting incompetent nitwits and alcoholics off the unemployment lines and sending them to Congress instead. These missing jobs are the jobs that the Unintentional Poor can't get. There is surely no greater punishment for the poor than a growing and intrusive government.
In my experience, people who bleat about the plight of the poor, a) Have never themselves experienced poverty, and b) Almost never actually care all that much about people in poverty - they're just such a charming cause to take up in the name of what is "progressive and right" while soiling the liberty of everyone else...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP /
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

<diatribe about how poverty is curable without actually bothering to present the cure snipped>
Which all gets down to your seeing the current system as unfair but not being willing to admit that your proposed alternative is unfair to somebody else.
Look, twit, I'm against all forms of taxation. I don't see HR25 as being any real improvement over what we've got--soak the rich, soak the poor, soak the middle class, soak the French, no matter how you structure it somebody gets soaked.
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--John
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J. Clarke wrote>

Since I don't agree that just because I can make more money than somebody else I should be penalized by higher taxation of my income so......
Just a thought, what if tax on purchases were progressive as prices increased?
e.g., a $20K car has a 5% tax, a $25K car has 6% and keeps going up a percent per $5K. Then the wealthy end up paying more in taxes than the not so wealthy. If you don't like the taxes, don't buy it or buy a lesser costing item.
Of course, this would get complicated when applied to different things such as food (should be exempt from tax) and clothing but could still work as the cost of a clothing item increases, so does the tax. The poverty level kids don't need a $150 pair of Nikes anyway (and neither do most people).
No more income tax, just a progessive use tax. It taxes the wealthy more but only if they want to pay for it.
Gary (just another idea that sure to tick off someone!)
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Actually, I think it's a grand idea. The tax code is already structured to implement various forms of social policy deemed to be for the benefit of everyone (e.g. it encourages the traditional family [married parents, one wage-earner] and home ownership). Such purposes can be IMO much more finely tuned with a sales tax or VAT than they can with an income tax, e.g. - high taxes on Big Macs, but low (or no) taxes on fruits and vegetables - modest tax on a basic Ford or Chevy, higher on a Caddy, whack the Beemers - no tax on Levis or Wranglers, sky-high taxes on Calvin Kleins - no tax on ground beef in the grocery, tax on a hamburger in a restaurant - no tax on ground beef, modest tax on a sirloin, high tax on a filet mignon or whatever.
Wrangling over what to tax and what not to tax will provide employment for all the suddenly unemployed tax accountants and lawyers, too.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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Doug Miller wrote: ...

...And there, again, is the rub where I agree entirely with your conjecture/solution :) That's what'll happen and, imo, effectively preclude any major swing in my lifetime, at least.
One will replace one convoluted set of rules on one particular portion of the economy with another, equally convoluted set of rules on another. There's no hope of the government ever having the freedom to simply impose a "clean" system given the number of oxes to be gored.
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That's easy - we all have National Tax Debit Cards. Every purchase is run through the NTDC along with however we wish to pay for the item. You could elect to pay the tax at the point of sale or pay it at a later date. If you didn't pay at the time of sale, the program could be set up with choices for pulling the tax from various sources - you could have the amount pulled from every paycheck; or you could have the Feds EFT it from a bank account on a regular basis; or you could send in quarterly payments on your account balance (OAC).
Doesn't that get yer panties in a bunch?
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
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Hmm. Top quality tools are already difficult enough to find...
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 05:33:40 GMT, "patrick conroy"

Well, I only hope that the experience did not leave you entirely bereft of liquid assets.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 05:33:40 GMT, "patrick conroy"

Just about how I did it. Had a bit of a headache the next morning. Actually, I didn't hit the last "Send" button until the whole thing saw the light of day.
-Dan V.
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