OT - Stem Cell Research, is it ethical?

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wrote:

The *real* issue is that it's women rather than men who have babies. If men did, we would have a constitutional amendment in place guaranteeing the right to abortion, Rush would be ranting about "christian fanatics," and we'd have the Usual Suspects screaming "baby hugger !" at anyone challenging it.
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Babies have no potential to continue to grow in a petre dish or in a freezer.
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these are imposed restrictions to the potential.
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Jana wrote:

So when the power fails at a fertility clinic who do you charge with murder?
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--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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Larry Blanchard wrote:
<SNIP>

Do you believe an egg is a fetus? I don't, but from your analogy, it appears you do. A human "egg" is not a baby, but a fetus is more than an egg.
Glen
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snipped-for-privacy@ix.netcom.com says...

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Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in message says...

Doug, Yes, it does make it right. No human should die in vain.
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(Jana) wrote:

Hmmmm. So it's okay to kill, if some good is going to come of the death?
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in message Larry Blanchard

Doug. They are not all utilized. The remainder are discarded ~ thrown away. I would be the last person who would approve of stem cell research if the only resources were from cells that were either aborted or would eventually be used invetro. We have the right to disagree and I admit your responces have gotten under my skin. I sincerely hope you or know one you love is ever dependant on this research. I have a huge interest in it. My husband is in a wheelchair. The fact that he can't walk isn't so bad. The pain is, though. He describes it as having your toes in a vise as tight as it'll go, with his feet in near boiling water, and the tingling you get when your feet have been asleep...all at the same time. 24-7 for over 7 years. The only relief is constant rubbing. It has nothing to do with circulation, the nerves just misfire. Somehow, he's just learned to deal with it. I'm not telling you this so you can feel sorry for me or Jim. We doctor at Mayo and I've met so many people that make us feel so lucky that I would be ashamed to complain. So, I'm sorry, you will never ever change my mind. I've been working for the past 7 years tying to get my husband to walk and it'll take more than you to make me give up.
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You know, the distinction that is being missed here is that there is no _ban_ on stem cell research, just a ban on government funding of _new lines of embryonic stem cell research_. Nobody is saying "Don't do the research", nobody is shutting down labs, they're just saying "the federal government won't fund new lines".

With all the other sources of stem cells out there, and all of the lines which are still being researched with federal funds...imagine how much more productive this could all be if people weren't getting bent out of shape based on misinformation about a ban on research that doesn't exist?
Dave Hinz
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(Jana) wrote:

This does not trouble you?

What's the difference, morally, between harvesting stem cells from a baby aborted in the womb, versus from a human embryo in vitro? Either one kills a unique human person.

I'm sorry that your husband is in such pain. But I can't see that it in any way justifies killing in the _hope_ -- it's not even a certainty -- that a treatment for his condition may be developed. In any event, research into adult stem cells and umbilical cord stem cells has, so far, been much more promising -- so why the insistence on using *embryonic* stem cells?
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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Hey. Check the name of this group.... this is for woodworkin stuff, not your philosophical rants.
Larry Blanchard

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Hey, check the title of the thread. See the "OT" in it? Stands for "off topic". If you don't like reading off-topic threads, there's a simple solution: don't read them.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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Hi Doug,

Interesting as this discussion may be, you have just argued for reducing the entire usenet to one large group - as long as people just start their threads with OT. You cannot be serious ?
--
Regards,
Soeren
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Soeren

Ever been in a shop with your co-workers? Did you all focus on the job at hand with a single-minded intensity, or chat about things that had nothing whatsoever to do with work to pass the time between those moments when focus on the job was absolutely necessary? There sure is a place for "shop talk" in a woodworking forum, at least in my opinion.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
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Hi,

That would IMO hold true if this was real life, but I think this (and other) discussion group(s) are more to be likened with say books - and who would like a book on one subject waisting time/space on perhaps 50% or more which had absolutely nothing to do with what they got the book for.
So I could ask you back: Ever been in a shop where all the nails, screws, bolts etc. of all sizes was tossed in one large box and all the tools in another - I think there is good reasons to keep wood issues in one group and political issues in another, then we _all_ can select what each of us want and be spared what we find "noise" - I guess you wouldn't be too happy if I drummed up a couple of wood working buddies and started a flood of discussions of say metalworking, motorcycling, robotics, local politics, (or whatever we are presently debating amongst us), in this group ?
And yes, I know I probably cannot expect any changes on this, but that will not keep me from expressing my opinion on the subject.
Of course, it has much to do with the balance of off topic to on topic posts and the general magnitude of the former, so here is a suggestion: Keep one single thread for OT posts and discuss *anything* OT in that single thread - that should appeal to your (and others) arguments of talking about a diverse range of subjects *and* keep the focus on woodwork overall :)
--
Regards,
Soeren
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in message
wrote:

If you don't like to read complaints about off-topic threads there's a simple solution: Don't read the off-topic threads.
--

FF

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--
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO GIVE THAT SPECIAL SOMEONE
A SEX TOY FOR CHRISTMAS! OR GIVE YOURSELF THAT
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in message Larry Blanchard

You better hope so, as we're killing a lot of innocents elsewhere and they're a lot bigger than embryos.
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saying that it's when the brain develops. Any other part of the human body can be transplanted or amputated and the soul remains unchanged.
I want to gently discuss the concept of a soul and expand on your logic a bit if you'll permit. The logical path you've taken is that the soul is contained in the brain. It may be.. but... is conscious thought the soul? Do people with brain damage have a damaged soul? If you subscribe to the belief that a soul even exists then chances are you also believe the soul isn't bound by the physical properties of this world. Brain wave activity can be monitored by various electrical impulses. When those impulses stop, as you yourself have said, the body can continue to function for a bit..... either artificially or simply just winding down. The thing is... brain death and actual death don't always coincide.
You said the following,"If you have ever been present at the time of death when a person becomes brain dead, it's all too clear. The body can continue to function for a time or be assisted by life support, but when the brain's gone...it's all over..."
If you've ever been in that situation.... if you were paying attention....you would have noticed a brief instance between brain death and actual death. That may be when the soul leaves the body. I do not believe we can begin to understand what is the soul or where it resides or even how it can reside and then leave to go..... where? The problem with applying logic to it is that it's illogical in the first place.
I personally don't condemn stem cell research. I'm against using it to justify abortion. Currently, there are over 4,000 abortions performed in the US every day. That's way more research material than we need. There are a sufficient amount of sources for the material needed to conduct research, i.e. miscarriages, stillbirths and even the death of a pregnant woman. Don't see anyone saying a woman ought to include the donating of a fetus in the case of accidental death now do you? You see Jana, you stated earlier that nothing would change your opinion about your hopes for stem cell research and I wouldn't ask you to. What I would ask you to do is to not allow your hope to compromise your values. I do not know if you subscribe to a religious belief or not. I do. My belief includes that one day, by the grace of God and the hope of salvation in Jesus that we all have been given hope of perfect, flawless bodies. If you'd like to discuss this further I'd be happy to via email.
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