OT - Stem Cell Research, is it ethical?

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It has been said that stem cell research may lead to cures of hundreds of serious illnesses. People like Christopher Reeve may one day walk again, if this line of research is aggressively pursued. The drawback is that an abortion needs to be performed to obtain embryonic stem cells. That means you need to kill an unborn baby, to potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives.
John Kerry supported embryonic stem cell research. George Bush does not. Do you?
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Joey Bosco wrote:

Yes.
And I support abortion rights.
And I'm guessing that techniques for cloning stem cells or isolating them by different means will render the issue moot soon enough.
JK
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Neat trick, even for stem cell research -- seeing as how he's dead!
The least you can do is keep your trolls up to date.
--RC
That which does not kill us makes us stronger. --Friedrich Nietzsche Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin. -- Wiz Zumwalt
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:09:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@TAKEOUTmindspring.com vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Who, "people like Christopher Reeve"? They're not all dead last I heard. <G>
RTOP.
You may be well advised to read the trolls before replying. ***************************************************** Dogs are better than people.
People are better than dogs for only one purpose. And then it's only half of ofthe people. And _then_ most of them are only ordinary anyway. And then they have a headache.........
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Also given the fact that other countries will do the research and develop the science whether the US govt. supports it or not... Shall we hold the folks who condemn the research at this point to rejecting the treatment when they or a family member might need whatever treatment becomes available? No, I guess not - my sense of liberal compassion won't allow me to withhold aid from someone who needs it.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:51:28 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

Coulda sworn it wasn't too long ago some of the compassionate liberals were really upset that the government might be supporting R&D by those nasty profit making drug manufacturers. I'm trying to figure out why government support for [potentially life saving] drug R&D is bad but [potentially life saving] stem cell R&D is good.
-Doug
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:48:51 -0700, Doug Winterburn

Have you really been brainwashed into believing that this is the decision point or are you just playing dumb ?
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Because the drug manufacturer who so readily took from the public funds to research and develop the drug then turns around and rapes the consumer (especially the US market) on drug costs. All the while looking for protections and favorable rulings.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
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On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 01:14:10 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:

And you think if any magic comes out of stem cell research the providers of the magic aren't going to clean up, whether they are in the US, France or wherever?
This whole hoopla about stem cell reseaarch is a big something about nothing. Consider:
1) Stem cell research is not illegal. 2) The feds don't supply unlimited funds for any kind of medical research. 3) GWB, not a democrat president, pushed through funds for limited stem cell research despite all the whining about deficits. 4) Many of us contribute to research for cancer, MS, childhood lukemia, etc. even though there may be some federal funds also provided.
So the question is why are folks trying to manufacture a political club outa this so as to reach into other folks pockets and demagoging the issue instead of getting out their crowbars and contributing themselves?
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

I'm not sure that you're really looking at the whole picture here. Moreover, this discussion has focused on morality instead of ethics.
The pharmaceutical manufacturers are reported to be making huge profits (IMO a Good Thing); but are doing so by selling at least some of those drugs for very much higher prices in the US than elsewhere (IMO price gouging, not a Good Thing.)
But, my opinions aside, the manufacturers are sufficiently profitable that they don't /need/ additional R&D funding.
Stem cell research, which seems to hold much promise, is still in its infancy - its profits yet to appear - and needs front-end R&D dollars until either we discover that the promise is false or until it yeilds profits that can be re-invested in R&D, at which point public funding should stop.
[Another personal opinion: I think the results of publicly funded R&D should be publicly owned; and patents denied on that basis. YMMV]
It's not /all/ about liberal/conservative issues.
Actually, I think the more interesting question might be whether a private subscription pool could be established to fund R&D efforts (of any/all areas holding substantial promise) from which the general (world) public would benefit. The corporate structure, invented to fund production/sales, would seem to be inadequate for funding extremely large front-end R&D efforts.
Care to focus on that possibility?
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:48:51 -0700, Doug Winterburn

Funny, I coulda sworn that had something to do with the most of R&D money of said drug manufacturers going to commericals that show people hiking and canoeing without ever telling you just what in the heck the drug is for.
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Prometheus wrote:

(a) What percentage of "R&D money" was diverted to those commercials? In fact what percentage of the annual income of that company was taken up by those expenditures. I think you'll find that they were a drop in the bucked for a company that size.
(b) The content of the commercials is regulated by the government.

--
--John
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:39:14 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Couldn't find a percentage, here's an article with some ad budgets. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/drugs/2001-12-11-drug-ads.htm You could be quite right about it being a drop in the bucket, but any signifigant money (and I'd call 160.8 million ad dollars for Vioxx pretty darn signifigant) is taking away from R&D. I would imagine that 9 figures would buy a pretty good chunk of research, instead of frittering it away on short videos of people canoeing.

Yippie. They still don't tell you just what in the hell the drug in question is supposed to do- shouldn't that be the point of the commercials?

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If they say what the drug does, they have to list the possible side-effects in the commercial as well. Not a noticable thing until someone points it out, but obvious after that.
Dave Hinz
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Prometheus wrote:

If the advertising is ineffective in increasing sales then you might have a point. If the increased income from sales is greater than the cost of the ads then the ads pay for themselves. So, playing Fun With Numbers, we find that Vioxx is an arthritis medication, which puts it in the Anti-inflammatory/analgesics category. Merck's sales in that segment were 2.6 billion dollars in 2003. The Vioxx ads cost 6 percent of that. If they increase sales by 6 percent in the first year in that segment then they've paid for themselves. If they increase it by a much smaller amount over the life of the product then they've paid for themselves.
Merck did not become a forty billion dollar company with 22 billion dollars a year in annual sales and 63,200 employees by "frittering money away on short videos of people canoeing". You can be sure that that expenditure was carefully scrutinized by a number of levels of management before being authorized.
Now, to put it in the perspective of research, Merck increased has increased their research budget about ten percent a year every year since 1994. Between 2002 and 2003 they increased that budget by more than twice the cost of those advertisements. The total research budget is about 20 times the cost of those advertisements. And the advertisements represent less than one percent of Merck's annual sales.
Most companies of any size have their annual reports online. They usually contain this kind of information.

Not if the government doesn't allow it. It's frustrating for the pharmaceutical companies and frustrating for the advertising agencies, but they do the best they can with what they've got. Until the government says precisely what conditions are "on label" and what side effects must be listed in the prescribing information they aren't allowed to say anything about what it treats in their advertising. So they either have to wait until the government gives them that information, in which case they don't get the ad campaign in gear until after the product has shipped, and they lose money in inventory costs, or they put out the kind of vague advertising that you have seen. Obviously they have determined that the vague advertising costs less than the inventory sitting on the shelves waiting for sales to pick up would cost, otherwise they wouldn't be spending money on it.

--
--John
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You got me there, and I'm not going to argue with it. Not enough sleep and too many cries of "murderer" directed at me got me good and worked up, and I started poking my ass out. I just get irritated with the huge number of commericals on every TV station, radio station, highway, bus-stop, taxicab and hundreds of other sources that surround us all the time. You can't get away from it, and it's gotten really offensive to me. No doubt the companies make money as a result of their ad campaigns- but they also make sickness, in my opinion. Some people must have these medicines, but their doctors should be the ones to prescribe them, not the television.

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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:59:37 -0600, Prometheus
The obvious ramblings of someone intheir twenties.
Search Result 5 From: Patrick Leach ( snipped-for-privacy@BEDFORD.PROGRESS.COM) Subject: Re: How do you cut tenons? View: Complete Thread (43 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.woodworking Date: 1995-01-06 04:59:15 PST
<Stuff. Volumes of stuff. All deleted.>
Jaysus H. X, Bennett, I simply chirp in with my $1.380 on why the 1/3rd rule of thumb evolved, and why it's still practical for many and I'm treated in return with rebuttal after rebuttal after rebuttal after rebuttal after rebuttal. I swear to god that I'd soil my drawers if you could just once let something be said uncontested, without a cross-examination that would be the envy of the OJ Simpson defense team.
Let's re-cap where this thread has gone, compliments of you - we've learned that the morticing gauge is a specialized tool; we've visited the East to note that endgrain is terrible; that tenons are the weak part of a mortice and tenon joint; that glued mortice and tenon joints on architectural doors are good; that power tools are designed with each other in mind and take in account proportion; that haunches were only the result of the groove being shot through; and, finally, best of all, that I'm "just trying to come up with solutions that can be achieved by handtools" to do what I do.
My last response in this catacomb of ratholes is, the morticing gauge is not a specialized tool and is very common; I live in the West (where endgrain was finished as well as any other grain) and don't give a rat's ass what they did in China; that my observations point to the mortice being the weak part of the mortice and tenon joint; that glue is un- necessary for pinned mortice and tenon joints (furthermore, it's lame to glue a 9" through morticed lock rail to a 4" stile); that handtools are sized with each other in mind and assist proportion; that haunches are the signature of finer work since they help prevent the rail from twisting; and I do what I do because it's traditional with the tools that I choose to use, is time-tested, has proven itself to yield satis- factory physical properties, and is recommended by scores of authors on the matter.
And since we're getting tremendous dining pleasure over the 1/3rd rule, here's another bone for ya to chew on. Someone asked about what other rules of thumb are used when making tenons. Another rule of thumb, when making mortice and tenons located at the corners of a frame, addresses the width of the tenon. Guess what? The width of these tenons is 2/3rd the width of the rail with the remaining 1/3rd given to the haunch. This is not only done to prevent the rail from twisting along it's face, but it's also done as an attempt to reduce short grain, which, by the way, is increased when making a tenon's thickness greater than one third the rail's thickness.
OK, Bennett, it's tender victuals time. Comes and gits it.......
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say Capt. Kirk? He's dead, Bennett. etc.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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Joey Bosco rides into the filters with:

What business is it of yours?
Charlie Self "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Abraham Lincoln
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Hey Charlie. Just a note to remind you that you can probably hold off checking for a reply for a couple weeks. (It appears this guy is a candidate for the Evelyn Wood course on Political Trolling 101.)
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

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Owen Lowe notes:

Yes. His alter ego, Sparrow, popped up on rec.photo.digital about the same time. Exactly the same wording.
Both names are nothing more than filter meat.
Charlie Self "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Abraham Lincoln
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