OT:...sort of. Productivity in retirement.

[Rod & Betty Jo]

My Dad until the last couple a years was one of those ....at 90 he finally got old..... He was taking care of a 2 acre place, large garden etc.....but this year is pretty much his last garden of any size (can't hardly walk). He does have a 91 yr old friend whom is still quite active in his woodshop....its quite a kick for Al to give me a tour, showing his latest projects, plans and home grown lumber.....he does do more scroll saw/fret work than other stuff now but he also still takes care of a 10 acre place.....Years back a 78 yr old duffer (Holly) helped and taught me how to do Formica in my kitchen, watching him handle a 10ft piece on his shopsmith was a kick....I asked a 79 yr. old (Ted) for concrete advice when I built my garage, I wanted him to sit on the grass and point but I couldn't keep him out of the muck as he insisted on dragging the bull float etc....Indeed there is and was a group of those old timers that didn't understand that a rocking chair was for sitting instead of building.....Rod

[Swingman]

There is a Downside ... being less PC, he's more liable to tell the dufus, baseball capped backward dumbsh*ts of today where to go.

[RonB]

"Mark & Juanita" .... and you know the really sad part? It makes "sense" when you look at

Absolutely! And more than that. After the turmoil, I decided to take an early out myself; and have spent much of the past four years doing contract work for the old firm. Even with us making $70 to $100/hour we are cheaper than many of the direct employees, when you consider their benefits burden add about 100+% to their hourly rate. A contract engineer comes in, does the job and leaves. No strings.

I have told both of our kids "Don't expect to do what Dad did." The 30-40 year employee is a thing of the past. Today's youngsters have to stay flexible.

Same thing for oldsters.

RonB

[Peter Lynch]

When you look at the demgraphics of voters, you will find than proprtionately more older people vote than younger people. Therefore it should come as no surprise (irrespective of the ad/dis- advantages of older vs. younger workers) that laws like this get passed. Unless the voter age profile shifts, expect more to come.

Pete (age 50)

[Jim Giblin]

[Prometheus]

Never been showed up by a guy younger than myself, but I've been put to shame by more than a few old timers when it comes to work. If they are still willing and able to do the job, there's no call to push them out- and that BS about being held back by the old guy that won't retire is just that. There are all sorts of ways to move up that don't involve getting someone else nailed and taking their place. A person deserving of advancement will find them no matter who is standing above them.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Yes I am. When I was there 15 years, they sent my wife and I to Italy for

10 days. At 10 years, one of my shippers (young sports fan) was sent to Florida for the first week of Red Sox spring training. Our Office Administrator (15 years) will be getting her dream trip at the Christmas Party tonight. She is taking a west coast tour for about 10 days.

[Morris Dovey]

| Never been showed up by a guy younger than myself, but I've been put | to shame by more than a few old timers when it comes to work. If | they are still willing and able to do the job, there's no call to | push them out- and that BS about being held back by the old guy | that won't retire is just that. There are all sorts of ways to | move up that don't involve getting someone else nailed and taking | their place. A person deserving of advancement will find them no | matter who is standing above them.

Agreed. I'd like to add to this just a bit.

IMO, one of the responsibilities of those who've accumulated experience is to distill it to it's essence and hand it off to the younger folks so that they don't need to spend their entire lives/careers to reach the same level of understanding that we have.

They'll need to pick up from where we leave off - not from where we were 40 or 50 years ago. Among other things, old timers need to teach impatient youngsters that moving up is a consequence of moving foreward; and that one person's gain need not come at the cost of another's loss.

My dream is that every younger person I've ever worked with will have accomplishments that far outshine any/all of mine.

(dos centavos)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Swingman]

But worth a million ... well put and noble sentiments, sir. You are a true gentleman!

[Han]

"Morris Dovey" wrote in news:45840362$0$61929$815e3792 @news.qwest.net:

I feel exactly the same way as you Morris.

But sometimes it does get difficult to transmit information. I was on a business trip this past week. My work is in a biochemistry/molecular biology lab, where one of the things we need is something like deionized water (like distilled water). In the lab that is accomplished by letting tapwater flow through 3 tanks: First a "carbon" filter to get the chorine and "junk" out, then 2 "mixed-bed ion-exchange" tanks. Everything in series with a shutoff valve on the building side, and a simple toggle valve on the "tap" side. The tanks are about 6" diamtere and 2 feet or so high. They are connected with tubing that includes automatic shut-off valves: when you disconnect them there is no flow, when you connect them there is flow.

On Monday I got a call from a younger coworker complaining the system didn't give any water. Nothing flowed. Who should he call in the VA? I made the mistake of not providing the complete explanation above, for reasons I know . Just asked him to check the tubing connections. When I came back to the lab on Friday afternoon, another coworker complained about the same thing. You guessed it. No one did check whether indeed there was a hose disconnected. It took me 10 seconds to check the 6 or so connections and push the last one in, since it had come loose (no one admits to touching it).

As our janitor explained to me a few years back: Han, common sense is a misnomer, it's not very common at all.

Happy holidays to all, whichever you celebrate!

[Morris Dovey]

| But sometimes it does get difficult to transmit information

I've noticed that, too. Sometimes it helps to speak more clearly; and sometimes it's a matter of holding a short 2x4 while you speak.

| As our janitor explained to me a few years back: Han, common sense | is a misnomer, it's not very common at all.

As far as I've been able to tell, the essential problem has to do with forgetting to make sure the sense machine is turned on and properly connected.

| Happy holidays to all, whichever you celebrate!

Thanks - and my best wishes to all for peace, good health, happiness, and straight-grained wood free of knots.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Robatoy]

As always, Morris, very nicely put.

During my corporate life, I observed that many of the old timers were afraid to share in fear of their jobs. My old boss pointed out the stupidity of that: "How are these guys ever going to move up if they don't have a replacement for their vacancy?"

Myself? I'm still stuck between these two proverbs: You're never too old to learn, You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

r

[Morris Dovey]

|| My dream is that every younger person I've ever worked with will || have accomplishments that far outshine any/all of mine. | | During my corporate life, I observed that many of the old timers | were afraid to share in fear of their jobs. My old boss pointed out | the stupidity of that: "How are these guys ever going to move up if | they don't have a replacement for their vacancy?"

I think I was fortunate to have been able to work as a consultant - because I never needed to worry about those issues. All I had to do was help people to see the problem under their nose from a perspective that made the solution obvious and help them feel good about discovering it themselves.

I was always working to put myself out of a job. The strange thing was that the more quickly I could do that, the more quickly the next job popped up (and usually with at least a small "raise"). I never thought of it as moving "up", if that's indeed what it was. I always thought of it as moving "foreward", into ever more interesting projects.

You got me to wondering, how is this essentially different from how one operates within a single corporation? The people within the corporate environment should have the advantage of being able to look around for problems in need of solution and being able to pick the ones they find most interesting...

| Myself? I'm still stuck between these two proverbs: | You're never too old to learn,

True.

| You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

So teach the new tricks to young dogs and let the old dogs learn by example at their own pace - they (the old dogs) won't want to be left behind.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Larry Blanchard]

I guess I was lucky in a way. My first real job was for GE back in the late '50s. I was told when I hired on that I had two jobs - train my replacement and make myself superflous. If I could do that, there'd be a better job waiting.

I have no idea if GE still follows that philosophy, but I did every place I worked. Even when I became a free lance "consultant" I told my customers that my job was defined by 5 "d"s. Design, document, develop, debug, and disappear.

Always worked for me.

[Just Wondering]

A person who can rise only by others falling doesn't deserve to rise.

[J T]

Thu, Dec 14, 2006, 6:10am (EST-3) [e-mail] (Robatoy) doth query: Thoughts?

If a company wants to let you go, they'll find a way.

I got laid off in 90 ( plant closed), and again in 95 (office closed). Most places, doesn't matter what the experience, you get to a certain age and they don't want to hire you - and usually don't. I don't know how many time I heard, "You're too experienced for the job" - meaning they didn't want to hire me because of my age, and this allowed them to get away with it.

I also heard a lot of BS about wanting people that would "stay and grow" with the company. Saw a lot of younger people hired, then they'd bail in a year or two, when a better paying job came along. Heard a lot of talk about promoting from within too, but that usually meant instead of listing the job, and letting people aplply for it, they'd just hire someone from outside the company, and claim they'd reviewed the records and no one was qualified, or they'd post the qualifications for the job so high no one could qualify.

At one time a lot of jobs required someone with a 8th grade education. Time went by, and they upgraded the requirements to a high school graduate, but the actual squills required were still only at an

8th grade level. More time went by, and now to qualify for the same job you have to have four-year college degree - even tho the actually skills required to do the job are still only at an 8th grade level. So there's a lot of jobs out they that people can't get, simply because they don't have a high enough education, not because they can't do the job. Sad really.

I've seen supervisor after supervisor who had no idea at all what the people under their supervision actually did. One production line position a new worker was trained by another worker. Well, the new worker kept screwing up. So they fired him and hired someone else. The new guy was "trained" by he same person. This new guy was fired for screwing up too. Repeated several times. I don't know how they finally solved the problem. The four-year college degree "supervisor" had no idea in the world what was going wrong, because he didn't bother learning what his people where supposed to be doing and how they were supposed to do it. What he should have done is to learn right from the start what his people did and how they did it, then train all new workers himself. Way back when, any time I transferred to a new assignment, I learned what my troops did and how they did it, then within six months I could do ANY job any of my people could do, sometimes better. I could watch someone work for just a minute or two and see if they were doing it right or not. If they were doing it right, I'd say good job, and move on. If they weren't doing it right, I'd correct them, watch for another minute or two, and moved on. I din't have to harass my people to get good work out of them, for one thing, because they knew if they got behind for some reason, Id jump in and help. Try that with 99.99% of the supersors in the commercial sector - it ain't gonna happen. I've found too that the managers usually didn't know what the supervisors were supposed to do either.

Life's a bitch, then you reincarnate.

JOAT Where does Batman buy gas for the Batmobile?

[Prometheus]

A noble goal- while we don't *need* to move forward, doing so is usually an improvement, provided that we're going in the right direction.

Also very true- I've been training one of the shop lackeys in setting up the mill and running the laser cutter whenever possible. If he can get to where he can take that over for me, great! I already know that when that happens, I'll be heading into the engineering department full-time.

That's nice, if it can happen that way, but I found that the lessons that really stuck for me were based on shame. I usually think I know the right way to do something, but there have been times where someone walks up and does the same task in 1/10 of the time, with the same or better result. Then I feel like a jerk for having wasted time my way, but it's a great spur to learn the other guy's method.

Must be the difference between corporate and production environments- I usually think "forward" as well, but I hear "up" a lot. To move "up", I'd have to be doing things I don't think I'd like doing, like finding ways to push people out of thier jobs and sneak into their place.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Times have changed. Years ago, it was common to leave school after the 8th grade to help support the family. In today's environment, any kid that wants to get through high school can, at no cost in the public schools. Problem is, many of them don't want to because they are just plain lazy. I have jobs that don't even require an 8th grade education, but I won't hire anyone that does not have a HS diploma. Believe me, I've tried and the kids that can't make high school, just don't want to work and be a part of normal society. They want to do their own thing and not follow any rules. Be gone, you lazy SOBs.

[Morris Dovey]

| On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:27:56 -0600, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | || Robatoy (in [e-mail]) || said: || ||| On Dec 16, 9:29 am, "Morris Dovey" wrote: || |||| My dream is that every younger person I've ever worked with will |||| have accomplishments that far outshine any/all of mine. | | A noble goal- while we don't *need* to move forward, doing so is | usually an improvement, provided that we're going in the right | direction.

I think we /do/ need to move forward (be more efficient, improve product quality, make customers more satisfied, etc.) Final judgement on whether we're going in the right direction necessarily comes after the fact.

Choosing not to move forward is making the choice of stagnation and irrevelence - both at the individual and enterprise levels. It isn't that the old ways are so bad; but rather that sticking to the old ways ensures that the old problems will always be with us.

Moving forward calls for wisdom (application of our knowledge of the consequences for the actions we take) and for courage (determination to take actions that fit our best principles and ideals even when those actions don't constitute the easiest, cheapest, or most comfortable course.

I think we criticize the MBA "bean counters" when, in fact, they aren't the individuals who make decisions resulting in degradation of tool quality. The bean counters do analysis, brainstorm options, and report to company management. If that management then fails to exercise wisdom and courage, the enterprise will not do well; and neither will its employees nor its customers.

||| During my corporate life, I observed that many of the old timers ||| were afraid to share in fear of their jobs. My old boss pointed ||| out the stupidity of that: "How are these guys ever going to move ||| up if they don't have a replacement for their vacancy?" | | Also very true- I've been training one of the shop lackeys in | setting up the mill and running the laser cutter whenever possible. | If he can get to where he can take that over for me, great! I | already know that when that happens, I'll be heading into the | engineering department full-time.

Hmm. I'm trying to reconcile this good news with your last paragraph below. :-?

|| I think I was fortunate to have been able to work as a consultant - || because I never needed to worry about those issues. All I had to do || was help people to see the problem under their nose from a || perspective that made the solution obvious and help them feel good || about discovering it themselves. | | That's nice, if it can happen that way, but I found that the lessons | that really stuck for me were based on shame. I usually think I | know the right way to do something, but there have been times where | someone walks up and does the same task in 1/10 of the time, with | the same or better result. Then I feel like a jerk for having | wasted time my way, but it's a great spur to learn the other guy's | method.

But there's no call to feel like a jerk. For everything that you (or I) do, there's likely to be at least one other person who can do one of those things better. IMO, a better response would be gladness to have found someone from whom we can learn. The jerks are the people who resent those who've found a better way and won't learn from them. "Jerkhood" doesn't fit what I've seen of you here. :-)

|| I was always working to put myself out of a job. The strange thing || was that the more quickly I could do that, the more quickly the || next job popped up (and usually with at least a small "raise"). I || never thought of it as moving "up", if that's indeed what it was. || I always thought of it as moving "foreward", into ever more || interesting projects. | | Must be the difference between corporate and production | environments- I usually think "forward" as well, but I hear "up" a | lot. To move "up", I'd have to be doing things I don't think I'd | like doing, like finding ways to push people out of thier jobs and | sneak into their place.

One of my discoveries has been that those people who keep an eye out for problems and offer good solutions for those they have the ability to solve (not necesarily all they find) build an in-house reputation as problem solvers. In healthy operations solutions to problems and the people who produce those solutions are valued highly.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Swingman]

The _really_ sad thing is that a college education today is almost equivalent in literacy/knowledge to an 8th grade education pre 1972.