OT:...sort of. Productivity in retirement.

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I just listened to a bunch of callers to a radio show, which dealt with the recent passing of a law that out-laws forced retirement. A guy can now keep his job past 65 if he wants to and is able. What I found interesting, was the polarity between opinions. On one end of the spectrum, young callers wanted the old guard to make room for them. On the other end, people suggested that experience is a good thing to have in a business. Being who I am, I immediately thought of a guy taking a swig of his Malox bottle and gumming his microphone: "This is your captain speaking, I think....let's get this box in the air, because it is time for my nap."
My wife thinks that old doctors are great at "I have seen this before", but that new doctors are better informed of new methods to threat those problems. ( I vote for keeping them both.)
New engineers, like my neighbour, apply new materials, the old guys still use rivets..(so to speak)
Nothing compares to an experienced hand using a scraper or fitting a dove-tail. (<-----the wood connection!)
When does it go from "lemme show ya, rookie." to " this is how we do it these day, old man."
I was particularly moved by a caller who said: " I have been in college to get my degree to do this job, I'm good at this job, and my only way upward is to become the head of my department. I am next in line and have been looking forward to my boss to retire next year. My boss runs 3 miles every day, he is as fit as a fiddle and is brilliant in solving problems for our company. On top of that, he's compassionate and a great friend to all that work for him... but when all is said and done, the sunnuvabitch is holding me back."
That last line cracked me up.
Thoughts?
r
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You should work as long as you productive and want to. Making room for the younger guys is just another form of affirmative action. If the young guy wants your position he can work for it and pay his dues just like you did and the guy before you.

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the
Maybe, but with the mandatory retirement eliminated, the young guy is likely going to have to pay more dues than you did to get somewhere. I'm kind of ambivalent to this change of retirement. It's fine for those people who really are productive and can make a positive contribution for some time to come, but I know damned well, there's going to be people who will insist on staying on even though they're long past the stage of contributing anything worthwhile. Various unions already do that for their members. With the mandatory retirement eliminated, it's going to be a tremendous struggle to get some people out.
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Upscale wrote:

Great point.. There's some productive older workers, but there's also some that start coasting in their last 5 years or so. If they could continue to work, knowing that they could retire at any time, I imagine a lot of the lazy ones would hang on another 5 years doing nothing but collecting a paycheck. Note, not all are lazy, but some are.
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<...snipped...>
Working for a government agency, I see this happen quite frequently. In fact, there are some employees who start "coasting" much earlier in their career, like, say, about 25 years before they retire.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - snipped-for-privacy@charm.net
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30 or so years ago (I was 23) I started a Janitorial/carpet cleaning service....physical work requiring lots of hustle. Along came a nice old timer (I thought in his 60's) whom had seen my yellow page ad and looked me up because we had the same last name<g>. He asked about doing my window accounts (at that time I did all of my own) so I politely took his name and number but figured "you gotta be kidding" after all it requires ladders, roofs, climbing, reaching, working at a near run and definitely to compete a spring to the step. A short time later I had quick uptick of construction cleanup and temporary residential demand....so what the heck I gave the old Norwegian a call...turns out he was 75 with 50 years experience...not only could I not keep up with him but I learned much....he actually moved bit slower but was much more effective with the steps he took.....he worked quite well till he was 78 and a heart attack slowed him...after a slow recuperation he wondered if he could do a few janitorial accounts since his doctor wouldn't let him wash windows anymore (his health really didn't allow that either).....twas a sad but touching day when he gave his window bucket and glass cleaning tools...he wouldn't sell them(I tried) but wanted to pass them along to me..... over the years I had many a younger employee who could not hold a candle to John.....discrimination for anything other than merit is both wrong and stupid.....Rod
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wrote:

I worked on the farm with my granddad, he was in his early 80's when I graduated from college. I wasn't a weakling, but there were things he could do at 83 that I couldn't do at 22. Came from raising a family on the Eastern Colorado plains during the Depression and Dustbowl I suspect, as well as having grown up with the mechanical age and using horses before that.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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My Dad until the last couple a years was one of those ....at 90 he finally got old..... He was taking care of a 2 acre place, large garden etc.....but this year is pretty much his last garden of any size (can't hardly walk). He does have a 91 yr old friend whom is still quite active in his woodshop....its quite a kick for Al to give me a tour, showing his latest projects, plans and home grown lumber.....he does do more scroll saw/fret work than other stuff now but he also still takes care of a 10 acre place.....Years back a 78 yr old duffer (Holly) helped and taught me how to do Formica in my kitchen, watching him handle a 10ft piece on his shopsmith was a kick....I asked a 79 yr. old (Ted) for concrete advice when I built my garage, I wanted him to sit on the grass and point but I couldn't keep him out of the muck as he insisted on dragging the bull float etc....Indeed there is and was a group of those old timers that didn't understand that a rocking chair was for sitting instead of building.....Rod
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Never fear, the FAA "forces" them to quit at age 60, no exceptions.
Robatoy wrote:

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Do the pilots have to quit or can they work as an attendant, or baggage handler or some thing else airline related?
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They can certainly take other flight positions. Flight engineers (although with automation that job is fading away). The FAA has this concept of 'pilot in command' and for some archaic reason they feel pilots over 60 arn't capable of this.
Al Haynes was the captain of the infamous United flight 232 that crashed in Sioux City in 1989. 110 people died in that accident. The fact that 175 survived is amazing. Crash investigators determined that the plane had sustained such damage as to make it un-landable. Captain Haynes was forced to retire later that year simply because he was turning 60. What a waste of talent and skills.
-- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR
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In my mind it has more to do with individual productivity. Regardless of age, if an employee is productive, read that to mean they are an asset to the company, then they will have secure employment. As soon as they become a liability, there value has to be re-evaluated.
OTOH, employees with a long tenure should be given greater latitude when determining their value.
Dave

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LOL, both of us having automotive back grounds we have similar opinions here. The older employee may not be as productive but his wisdom and experience is a valuable asset that can have a positive effect on productivity that not every one recognizes.
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"Leon" wrote in message

There is a Downside ... being less PC, he's more liable to tell the dufus, baseball capped backward dumbsh*ts of today where to go.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
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DON"T retire. I did in 1983 and there is not enough hours in the day to do all the things I want to. W W
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wrote:

... snip

Sounds like a good friend of ours. He once made the comment, "I retired 10 years ago and I'm so busy now I don't know how I ever had time for work!"
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

I don't know a single retiree who hasn't said that, including me! Seems that as soon as we retire, we slow down Not on purpose, it just seems to happen. Of course, there is that little nap after lunch :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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Robatoy wrote:

Sorry, but you struck a nerve here. I don't know where people get the notion that they are entitled to advancement. It's a free market economy, and when the overall quality of life looks better in another job, I'll leave the employer I've loved for 26 years now. But the quality of life doesn't look better in another job, so I'm staying put. As long as I'm here, I feel like I owe them the loyalty to not whine about my pay or my working conditions, or my boss (not that I have anything to complain about).
There will always be people standing between us and some goal. The boss that's holding him back is probably making the company money in more intangible ways than he'll ever know, focused on himself as he is. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
Because I was fortunate enough to go to college, I was placed in a position of authority over men near retirement age when I was not yet thirty. I'm glad I was able to value their wisdom and experience, because they could have sabotaged my whole career by simply keeping their knowledge to themselves instead of sharing it with me. There's no substitute for 20 years of experience. I believed it then and I believe it even more now.
If that young man will concentrate on learning what he can from that boss instead of hoping he'll get out of the way, the promotions will take care of themselves, and he'll ultimately rise higher.
DonkeyHody "A dwarf on giant's shoulders can see the farther of the two." - George Herbert
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Thu, Dec 14, 2006, 12:33pm (EST-3) snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net (DonkeyHody) doth sayeth: <snip> Because I was fortunate enough to go to college, I was placed in a position of authority over men near retirement age when I was not yet thirty. I'm glad I was able to value their wisdom and experience, because they could have sabotaged my whole career by simply keeping their knowledge to themselves instead of sharing it with me. There's no substitute for 20 years of experience. I believed it then and I believe it even more now.<snip>
The plant I worked in made printed computer circuit boards. They hired people directly out of college as supervisors. They didn't know jack about what the people they "supervised" did, and made no effort to learn, because they were S*U*P*E*R*V*I*S*U*R*S. Some guy from personnel got himself in as a supervisor, because it paid more. His people would ask him if a circuit board was OK and he'd look it over and say "Yes". Actually it'd take specialized testing for up to about 24 hours before you could tell if it was OK or not. But the other supervisors wenen't any better. For awhile the rejection rate of boards was 100%. The plant closed down, and was later sold. If the compny had promoted from within, people that actually knew what was happening, it's possible the plant would still be open.
Now this was a plant making computer circuit boards. We had an "electrical engineer", with a four-yeard degree in electrical engineering. complain a report was not correct. Turned out he'd entered bad input, "knowing" it was bad, because he thought the computer would correct it. Even after about 15 minutes of explaining to him that it didn't work that way, GIGO, he still didn't believe it. Sadly, things like that were pretty typical there.
JOAT Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (J T) wrote in 3332.bay.webtv.net:

instilling job loss fears and using company employees to fix their houses. Been there, done that and got out taking my knowledge with me. Employees are now a disposable commodity and companies cant understand why there is no employee loyalty
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