OT: Social Security Admin or scam?

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Mark & Juanita wrote:

No picture then, I gather.

Mexico perhaps? Possibly the object is to better 'relate' (though usually a lost cause from the outset) to students who may be more rebellious IRT advice in English. Sort like saying the Mass in vernacular, nobody's listening anyways.
I dunno if there are Spanish language schools in Tuscon, but it would not surprise me if there were some that never converted to English.
--

FF


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The manuals might of been a bad example in this case. The manuals are nor really written to accommodate the US but the global market that has come about. It was just the best analogy that I could come up with.
Chris
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man, enough is enough. do you not see the irony in posting your english only crap in english that is so bad as to be unintelligible? please proofread what you write before you post. you are smart enough to be able to form coherent sentences, aren't you?

what, you want instructions manuals for stuff made in china for sale worldwide to be in english only? don't hold your breath.

but being barely literate in english and completely illiterate in everything else is just fine, eh?

but chinese is gaining fast. once there are more chinese as second language speakers in the world than english as second language speakers, you're going to switch to speaking only chinese, right?

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wrote:

Mental note to self: If I bash someone's typo, make sure I use proper capitalization when doing so.
Ironic is it not?
Chris
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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

...
...
"Neither the less ..." should have been "Nevertheless ..." which helps at least some.
If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/ native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue.
I don't have a problem w/ using bilingual teachers, but I do think the goal needs to be all-English instruction/immersion asap.
So, iow, all shop measurements should be in English, not metric, and all safety instructions printed in English only. (Now are we back on topic?) :)
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

Seems sensible to me. But there's one thing the Internet has proven to me, and that's that English speaking countries, almost all of which rely on the consistency of written language, need to spend a whole lot more effort in teaching the basics to native English speakers (and writers).
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Charlie Self wrote: ...

Well, that's true in spades for all subjects, not just English. :(
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

Yes, I got that much. The paragraph sort of reminds me of some of the things I write late at night. When I read it back that night, I read words that are no longer there when I see it posted the next day...

Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise as well qualified.
In addition, it is necessary from the outset to communicate various concepts to both the students and their parents and from them to the teachers and administrators from the outset. This includes things like school rules, schedules, and vaccination requirements.

I think we all agree on that, especially most immiigrant parents. I recall a quote form one Texan who said he wants his children to learn in English so they can become engineers, doctors, and lawyers. The school system wants to teach them in Spanish so they can flip burgers and mow lawns.
--

FF


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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to have managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so much less capable than they were?

Initially, there is a potential problem, particularly w/ some of the adults, granted. Still, it's typically easier to find a part-time translator than an instructor in places like we are here--we have many varieties of SE Asians, etc., from the influx in the 60s that are now, for the most part, successful small business owners, etc., while the packing plant jobs are now <mostly> Hispanic-speaking. But, I can think of only a couple of the various Asian-speaking folks who have ever chosen to become teachers and are in the schools, yet many do translations as needed on a "on-call" basis.

I don't see that from the school system (here anyway), but I do see the end result it has from many of the social "do-gooders" that want to maintain "diversity" at the sake of assimilation, thus prolonging and deepening the isolation from the mainstream economy.
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you find them within those same communities. if there are enough people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion even remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers within it, and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly americans who don't figure there is any value to speaking more than one language.
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snipped-for-privacy@all.costs (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
|||| If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/ |||| native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue. ||| ||| Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to ||| be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak ||| Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent ||| ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise ||| as well qualified. || || First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities || where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like || packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to || have managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so || much less capable than they were? | | you find them within those same communities. if there are enough | people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion | even remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers | within it, and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly | americans who don't figure there is any value to speaking more than | one language.
As a short-term (2 yrs) ESL volunteer teacher, I was surprised to find that my students /knew/ English fairly well - but had somehow managed to convince themselves that they couldn't. I don't know that they were typical; but most of my work was oriented toward confidence-building and helping them comprehend a culture very different from what they were used to.
Their kids (after two months) sounded as if they'd lived here all their lives.
I'm not sure the comment about Americans isn't an unfair stereotyping. At least a simple majority of the Americans I've known have taken the trouble to learn at least some key phrases in at least one language other than English. That's admittedly not the same as becoming fluent; but it does indicate that they find some value in communicating in another language. I'll stick my neck out and guess (right out loud) that most people won't have much problem with "buenas dias", "por favor", "gracias", "bonjour", "s'il vous plait", and "merci".
I think the biggest problem for most people (including Americans) is that of not wanting to speak a language /badly/.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
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snipped-for-privacy@all.costs wrote:

I was speaking of English as First Language accredited teachers which was what I thought was being advocated as the modus operandi...
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

I think most of are are speaking from a viewpoint of what might be best, given typical circumstances, not what are the best choices to be made among current practices.
OBVIOUSLY, you won't have teachers available who speak all of the native languages of all of the students in every school. My point is that if you are going to teach those students English, you should not EXCLUDE from consideration teachers who also speak some of those other languages.
--

FF


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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

...
Well, that seems pretty obvious to me, too... :)
I interpreted your previous response as there must be a (preferably native) of whatever language there might be found no matter how few there might be in a class or how obsucure the language/dialect.
Seems we have no disagreement after all, at least on that particular point...
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On 22 Sep 2005 11:02:28 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

some people learn english just fine by immersion, but some don't. insisting on immersion just shoves those people further and further behind. being able to discuss what is happening in class in a language you understand is pretty much always going to help.
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Many of our parents and grandparents came from other countries. The faster they learned English, the faster they got good paying jobs and opened businesses. They figured it out for themselves, not with the government holding their hand.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

All of us had relatives who came from somewhere else, including so-called Native Americans. It's just that their ancestors go here 1500 or 2000 years ago and ran off the previous inhabitants longer ago than anyone else.
That said, the government help wasn't available back then, so the harder workers did best (assuming at least average intelligence, whatever that is). Today, in many cases, the harder workers do best and whine less, so we hear less about them. The fastest learning immigrants are those who come from a culture where learning was valued. I think that may always have been the case. It may always be the case. If school is viewed as a way to coop the kids up for the day, keep 'em out from underfoot at home, then the learning process involved is secondary and will get short shrift. That's hard enough for native English speakers. It's even harder for those starting without the most useful language in this country.
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:10:53 -0500, Duane Bozarth

All ESL programs that I have been around do use a single english speaking teacher to teach students whose native language may be anything. The program that uses a teacher with the same language background as the students is called bi-lingual education in my neck of the woods. Usually the bi-lingual programs are where there are substantial populations speaking a similar language (i.e. spanish in the southwest, etc.) The ESL programs (as I know them) normally occur where there are small populations using various languages. In the District where I work we have a number of students with varying language backgrounds. This is mostly due to being a suburb of Pittsburgh with fairly easy transport to the various Universities in the area. Many foreign University students live with their families (including their school age children) in the apartment buildings in this community. We also have a number of families in the area that sponser kids from other areas (we had a dozen or so from Kosovo last year). These add to the stew. The classes in the ESL program while small (maybe 6 or 8 students) may have several languages as the native spoken language of the students. The teacher may speak none of them. . The ESL program does not try to teach the students academics in their language, it trys to teach them english in conjunction with their academic studies.
Dave Hall
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- G.B. Shaw
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Dave Hall wrote:

I think that's what I said? :)
I used bilingual instructors in referring to the <instructors themselves>.
However, ESL here deals mostly w/ Hispanics (school district is up to something like 60% now, a large fraction of those are brand new every year). We still have sizable fraction of Asians as well as German-speaking as well. All in a population base <20.000. Don't know that the state here distinguishes whether there are lots of one vs a few of a lot--it's ESL for everybody who's not "EFL".
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Chris wrote:

...
...
But there would still be an incremental additional cost that wouldn't/shouldn't be required--that's the cost to which I object.
I am also opposed to the advancement of other than English as "official" languages for official business simply on the grounds of minimizing the tendency to Balkanization of the US. The fundamental success of the US has relied on the assimilation of various ethnic groups into a cohesive whole. You can have your culture and enclave, I'm all for that but you simply <must> learn to not necessarily completely subjugate that to the overall culture but learn to coexist in "the big picture" imo.
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