Switzerland has almost no 'standing army'. But as you say, virtually all adult males are part of their reserve forces.
Of course Switzerland has a distinct geographical advantage IRT enforcing their neutrality.
BTW, there are three official languages in Switzerland...
We are in agreement. On the translation part I was referring only to using several languages for normal conduction of business, i.e., legal notices, ballots, minutes of a meeting, etc. Certainly translators are needed in any court or legal type situation where one of the parties does not speak English.
Your last part is most valid. What is not valid is trying to teach school subjects by translation or in classes conducted in a foreign language to K-12 students. It is far more efficient to simply teach the nonspeaker English and forget other subjects. In other words, intensive language training with 5-6 hours a day. That will set the child back 1 year in school but thereafter he/she learns in English.
"Conduction" ?
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
What does one have to do with the other? Presumably, on your basis, some guy speaking Bantu, who pays taxes, should be able to force his language on the rest of us. The dominant language in this country has always been English, for the simple reason that by far the largest percentage of the population spoke and read it. It simplifies public life to have it remain so, but there is no reason that people cannot speak whatever language they prefer among themselves, whether Bantu, Swahili or one of god knows how many Chinese dialects. Hell, they can even speak Irish for all I care. I just don't care to have to pay for the translations that take up half the space in manuals and tax instructions, or to have to deal with people who cannot speak English but are being paid by MY taxes to sell government programs to the public.
I guess we can go with a dual language set-up, a dual cultural set-up, as in Quebec. We all know that has worked beautifully over the years, don't we?
That's how static electricity travels through your dust collection tubing to cause explosions;-) Joe
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:22:32 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Tom Watson quickly quoth:
The non-electrical, non-temperature type, Tawm.
===================================================================== -=Everything in Moderation,=- NoteSHADES(tm) glare guards -=including moderation.=-
Your presumption, not mine.
Suppose there is enough revenu from Bantu speakers so that income tax instructions published in Bantu cost the government the same as income tax instructions published in English. Then it wouldn't be your taxes that go for paying for the translation, right?
Personally, I'm kind of ambivalent about publishing income tax instructions in multiple languages, though it may be cost-effective in some cases.
But supposing that there is a school system with a lot of students who speak Bantu. It makes sense to me to hire some- one who speaks Bantu to teach those students English.
Switzerland has three official languages. How well has that worked out?
BTW, have you ever complimented an Indian on how well he speaks English?
I have an idea. When the English speakers are not the majority of the tax payers, than we can change the language.
NO. It does them no good or the soceity that they are in.
German language is still dominant. The Ittalian and French speakers understand German pretty well becuase they want to be a part of soceity not a debt. Does them no good to listen and vote for the Government when they cannot understand them.
Find me one that speaks anything other than English these days, and I will.
I have an idea, suppose suppose we don't change the language.
I do not see how you can deny that teaching those students English does not benefit both the students and their society.
Sadly, you are not alone.
My doctor speaks Hindi and English. But please, do not compliment her on her English.
BTW, the question was addressed to Charles Self, in response to something he wrote earlier.
Pretty much repetitive. I said the same thing above.
I read wrong on the above. Thought you meant to bring someone in to continue teaching in Bantu and not English. Neither the less bringing in a teacher for each language is out of the question. Use a native speaker for all the different speakers. Better education as well.
We were taking about Cherokee Indians early. When did it change to Indians (as in the country)?
Chris
I retired from SS about five years, ago.
We had procedures to call beneficiaries directly, but they were few and always about specific claims.
We did mail out questionnaires from time to time, but they were always sent on official letterhead paper, in officially franked envelopes.
The administration maintains a list of certified translators, (especially for foreign documents like birth certificates and marriage licenses), but they have to be officially tested by the Administration before they can be certified as translators, and it's an expensive and time consuming process.
I have personally talked on the phone to Administration employees(!) in which I required a translator just to understand them. (South Texas District Offices). Luckily, the guy at the next desk was of Latin extraction, and I'd just hand the phone to him and let him chatter away in Spanish, and then he'd translate to English. (Romero also was kind enough to demonstrate to me that I would never be a chess master, since he regularly kicked my butt in our matches)
Far northeastern accents, were sometimes difficult, too, especially Maine, but we could usually manage.
Keep in mind the quality of telephone equipment, which could easily make a bad language situation, almost impossible.
Consider the situation where the beneficiary calls into the Administration with a question. (Those infamous 800 number help lines.) A good many times, not only does the answering employee not understand the language, a fair amount of time, the employee doesn't even know which language is being spoken. They might guess at Spanish, French or German, just from the sound, but how about Polish, Rumanian, or Portuguese? Not to mention Bantu, Farsi or Vietnamese.
Newt Gingrich is campaigning that all people wishing to be US citizens should be required to take a comprehensive history test, administered completely and solely in English. Among other things. I happen to agree.
While I do not want to adopt an official language, (with all the silly bureaucracy that the French have, to keep foreign words out of the French language), I see no problem with declaring standard English as the official language of choice, and abandoning all the special considerations that are in place, today.
James.... I've been to Mexico. I liked the people. I liked the food. I can even appreciate many elements of the culture (love of family, honesty, fidelity, honor). But I don't want to live in Mexico.
No it is not repetative. You missed the point. Accomodating other languages does not change 'the' language from English nor does it force another language on English speakers (an earlier remark).
I'm not able to make any sense of that paragraph even after reading it several times.
It changed when Charlie Self mentioned Vietnamese, Pakistanis and Indians in the same sentence. I presume he meant Asiatic Indians, not 'woo woo' Indians. Perhaps his article has not yet propagated to your newsserver.
Yes it is repetative as the chances are NONE that the majority of the tax payers will be anything but English.
Find a native speaker to read it for you then,.
I must of missed that memo.
Chris
...
But there would still be an incremental additional cost that wouldn't/shouldn't be required--that's the cost to which I object.
I am also opposed to the advancement of other than English as "official" languages for official business simply on the grounds of minimizing the tendency to Balkanization of the US. The fundamental success of the US has relied on the assimilation of various ethnic groups into a cohesive whole. You can have your culture and enclave, I'm all for that but you simply learn to not necessarily completely subjugate that to the overall culture but learn to coexist in "the big picture" imo.
...
...
"Neither the less ..." should have been "Nevertheless ..." which helps at least some.
If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/ native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue.
I don't have a problem w/ using bilingual teachers, but I do think the goal needs to be all-English instruction/immersion asap.
So, iow, all shop measurements should be in English, not metric, and all safety instructions printed in English only. (Now are we back on topic?) :)
Seems sensible to me. But there's one thing the Internet has proven to me, and that's that English speaking countries, almost all of which rely on the consistency of written language, need to spend a whole lot more effort in teaching the basics to native English speakers (and writers).
Legal notices, of course, are a legal type situation and when you consider one of the societal benefits of a legal notice is to reduce future legal hassles then publication in the predominant language(s) of the community in which it is published is not wasteful.
I think one point on which we agree is that the need to provide tranlsations for non-English speakers is highly situational. Neither total accomodation nor a prohibition on accomodation makes sense and reasonable persons can disagree as to where to draw the line in various situations.
That's the basic idea, the devil's in the details.
Charlie Self wrote: ...
Well, that's true in spades for all subjects, not just English. :(
You continue to miss the point. Making something available in other languages does not make it unavailable in English. A repeated insistance that it does is indicative a failure to grasp that simple reality, or disengenousness.
Making tax instructions available in Spanish does not 'change the language' from English to Spanish so long as the English language instructions remain available.
Could you help us out by identifyihng your native language?
Yes. That's pretty much what I said only I used the word 'article' instead of 'memo' because it was the correct English word to use.
I don't object if there is a reasonable expectation of saving a similar amount of money as a consequence of the accomodation. In this example, tax forms and instructions, I expect the publication of Spanish language instructions for tax forms would improve the efficiency with which taxes are collected.
There are any number of situations where a pig-headed insistance on English-only will exacerbate problems. It is a measured decision as to where to draw the line.
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