Mexico perhaps? Possibly the object is to better 'relate' (though
usually a lost cause from the outset) to students who may be more
rebellious IRT advice in English. Sort like saying the Mass in
vernacular, nobody's listening anyways.
I dunno if there are Spanish language schools in Tuscon, but
it would not surprise me if there were some that never converted
The manuals might of been a bad example in this case. The manuals are nor
really written to accommodate the US but the global market that has come
about. It was just the best analogy that I could come up with.
man, enough is enough. do you not see the irony in posting your
english only crap in english that is so bad as to be unintelligible?
please proofread what you write before you post. you are smart enough
to be able to form coherent sentences, aren't you?
what, you want instructions manuals for stuff made in china for sale
worldwide to be in english only? don't hold your breath.
but being barely literate in english and completely illiterate in
everything else is just fine, eh?
but chinese is gaining fast. once there are more chinese as second
language speakers in the world than english as second language
speakers, you're going to switch to speaking only chinese, right?
"Neither the less ..." should have been "Nevertheless ..." which helps
at least some.
If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/
native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue.
I don't have a problem w/ using bilingual teachers, but I do think the
goal needs to be all-English instruction/immersion asap.
So, iow, all shop measurements should be in English, not metric, and all
safety instructions printed in English only. (Now are we back on topic?)
Seems sensible to me. But there's one thing the Internet has proven to
me, and that's that English speaking countries, almost all of which
rely on the consistency of written language, need to spend a whole lot
more effort in teaching the basics to native English speakers (and
Yes, I got that much. The paragraph sort of reminds me of
some of the things I write late at night. When I read it
back that night, I read words that are no longer there when
I see it posted the next day...
Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to
be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak
Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent
ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise
as well qualified.
In addition, it is necessary from the outset to communicate
various concepts to both the students and their parents and
from them to the teachers and administrators from the outset.
This includes things like school rules, schedules, and
I think we all agree on that, especially most immiigrant
parents. I recall a quote form one Texan who said he
wants his children to learn in English so they can become
engineers, doctors, and lawyers. The school system
wants to teach them in Spanish so they can flip burgers
and mow lawns.
First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities
where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like
packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to have
managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so much less
capable than they were?
Initially, there is a potential problem, particularly w/ some of the
adults, granted. Still, it's typically easier to find a part-time
translator than an instructor in places like we are here--we have many
varieties of SE Asians, etc., from the influx in the 60s that are now,
for the most part, successful small business owners, etc., while the
packing plant jobs are now <mostly> Hispanic-speaking. But, I can think
of only a couple of the various Asian-speaking folks who have ever
chosen to become teachers and are in the schools, yet many do
translations as needed on a "on-call" basis.
I don't see that from the school system (here anyway), but I do see the
end result it has from many of the social "do-gooders" that want to
maintain "diversity" at the sake of assimilation, thus prolonging and
deepening the isolation from the mainstream economy.
you find them within those same communities. if there are enough
people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion even
remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers within it,
and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly americans who don't
figure there is any value to speaking more than one language.
email@example.com (in firstname.lastname@example.org)
|||| If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/
|||| native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue.
||| Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to
||| be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak
||| Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent
||| ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise
||| as well qualified.
|| First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities
|| where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like
|| packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to
|| have managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so
|| much less capable than they were?
| you find them within those same communities. if there are enough
| people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion
| even remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers
| within it, and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly
| americans who don't figure there is any value to speaking more than
| one language.
As a short-term (2 yrs) ESL volunteer teacher, I was surprised to find
that my students /knew/ English fairly well - but had somehow managed
to convince themselves that they couldn't. I don't know that they were
typical; but most of my work was oriented toward confidence-building
and helping them comprehend a culture very different from what they
were used to.
Their kids (after two months) sounded as if they'd lived here all
I'm not sure the comment about Americans isn't an unfair stereotyping.
At least a simple majority of the Americans I've known have taken the
trouble to learn at least some key phrases in at least one language
other than English. That's admittedly not the same as becoming fluent;
but it does indicate that they find some value in communicating in
another language. I'll stick my neck out and guess (right out loud)
that most people won't have much problem with "buenas dias", "por
favor", "gracias", "bonjour", "s'il vous plait", and "merci".
I think the biggest problem for most people (including Americans) is
that of not wanting to speak a language /badly/.
DeSoto, Iowa USA
I think most of are are speaking from a viewpoint of what might be
best, given typical circumstances, not what are the best choices
to be made among current practices.
OBVIOUSLY, you won't have teachers available who speak
all of the native languages of all of the students in every
school. My point is that if you are going to teach those
students English, you should not EXCLUDE from consideration
teachers who also speak some of those other languages.
Well, that seems pretty obvious to me, too... :)
I interpreted your previous response as there must be a (preferably
native) of whatever language there might be found no matter how few
there might be in a class or how obsucure the language/dialect.
Seems we have no disagreement after all, at least on that particular
On 22 Sep 2005 11:02:28 -0700, email@example.com wrote:
some people learn english just fine by immersion, but some don't.
insisting on immersion just shoves those people further and further
behind. being able to discuss what is happening in class in a language
you understand is pretty much always going to help.
Many of our parents and grandparents came from other countries. The faster
they learned English, the faster they got good paying jobs and opened
businesses. They figured it out for themselves, not with the government
holding their hand.
All of us had relatives who came from somewhere else, including
so-called Native Americans. It's just that their ancestors go here 1500
or 2000 years ago and ran off the previous inhabitants longer ago than
That said, the government help wasn't available back then, so the
harder workers did best (assuming at least average intelligence,
whatever that is). Today, in many cases, the harder workers do best and
whine less, so we hear less about them. The fastest learning immigrants
are those who come from a culture where learning was valued. I think
that may always have been the case. It may always be the case. If
school is viewed as a way to coop the kids up for the day, keep 'em out
from underfoot at home, then the learning process involved is secondary
and will get short shrift. That's hard enough for native English
speakers. It's even harder for those starting without the most useful
language in this country.
All ESL programs that I have been around do use a single english
speaking teacher to teach students whose native language may be
anything. The program that uses a teacher with the same language
background as the students is called bi-lingual education in my neck
of the woods. Usually the bi-lingual programs are where there are
substantial populations speaking a similar language (i.e. spanish in
the southwest, etc.) The ESL programs (as I know them) normally occur
where there are small populations using various languages. In the
District where I work we have a number of students with varying
language backgrounds. This is mostly due to being a suburb of
Pittsburgh with fairly easy transport to the various Universities in
the area. Many foreign University students live with their families
(including their school age children) in the apartment buildings in
this community. We also have a number of families in the area that
sponser kids from other areas (we had a dozen or so from Kosovo last
year). These add to the stew. The classes in the ESL program while
small (maybe 6 or 8 students) may have several languages as the native
spoken language of the students. The teacher may speak none of them. .
The ESL program does not try to teach the students academics in their
language, it trys to teach them english in conjunction with their
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it." -- G.B. Shaw
I think that's what I said? :)
I used bilingual instructors in referring to the <instructors
However, ESL here deals mostly w/ Hispanics (school district is up to
something like 60% now, a large fraction of those are brand new every
year). We still have sizable fraction of Asians as well as
German-speaking as well. All in a population base <20.000. Don't know
that the state here distinguishes whether there are lots of one vs a few
of a lot--it's ESL for everybody who's not "EFL".
But there would still be an incremental additional cost that
wouldn't/shouldn't be required--that's the cost to which I object.
I am also opposed to the advancement of other than English as "official"
languages for official business simply on the grounds of minimizing the
tendency to Balkanization of the US. The fundamental success of the US
has relied on the assimilation of various ethnic groups into a cohesive
whole. You can have your culture and enclave, I'm all for that but you
simply <must> learn to not necessarily completely subjugate that to the
overall culture but learn to coexist in "the big picture" imo.
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