OT: Separate hot and cold valves on kitchen taps save energy.

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On 6/7/11 2:41 PM, Swingman wrote:

Interesting.... I don't understand the first feature.... "Performs like a tankless model and can also handle high hot water demand periods"
If the "and" is a typo, fine, but I thought the whole purpose of a tankless *is* to "handle high hot water demand periods."
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-MIKE-

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"-MIKE-" wrote in message wrote:

Interesting.... I don't understand the first feature.... "Performs like a tankless model and can also handle high hot water demand periods"
If the "and" is a typo, fine, but I thought the whole purpose of a tankless *is* to "handle high hot water demand periods."
--

-MIKE-

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On 6/7/2011 8:20 PM, Eric wrote:

Watch that paraphrased Google knowledge, it'll bite you in the butt just like your plumbing salesman ...
Water temperature and source makes no difference to a manifold delivery system itself, hot or cold, tank or tankless.
With a PEX mainfold system, properly located and installed, the water in the usual 3/8" tubing has a higher water velocity, and the water, hot or cold, is delivered much faster than with a conventional piping system, tank or tankless, and with a lower volume in the tubing ... albeit not much more "green" on that score.
Once again, proper planning and installation to the forefront.
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"Swingman" wrote in message
On 6/7/2011 8:20 PM, Eric wrote:

Watch that paraphrased Google knowledge, it'll bite you in the butt just like your plumbing salesman ...
Water temperature and source makes no difference to a manifold delivery system itself, hot or cold, tank or tankless.
With a PEX mainfold system, properly located and installed, the water in the usual 3/8" tubing has a higher water velocity, and the water, hot or cold, is delivered much faster than with a conventional piping system, tank or tankless, and with a lower volume in the tubing ... albeit not much more "green" on that score.
Once again, proper planning and installation to the forefront. =================== The tankless water heater problems are not addressed with design techniques of water delivery systems. Hot and cold water have different requirements for delivery. Cold water can go to Timbuktu and back and there isn't much ill effect on it. Hot water needs to be delivered before it cools off.
That may be the biggest problem with this stuff here. 1/2" is the standard and 3/8" is very uncommon and more difficult to obtain. There may even be a code issue as PEX is new on the scene.
We do not use 3/8" tubing. We only have 1/2" PEX pipe used for plumbing. Plumbing uses pipe sizes, not tubing. 3/8" PEX pipe could make more sense to fill less reservoir with hot water before delivery. I am not familiar with an code issues on the smaller size.
I only know the latest system delivers hot water much more efficiently without the manifold and longer lengths of reservoir.
--
Eric


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Disagree... they can be, and they should be if you have the opportunity to do so.

That's not what you said ... You specifically state that about a manifold system, which I have proven in practice to not be the case with proper attention to detail.

A 1/8" diameter difference in pipe is significantly and mathematically different as far as flow and volume characteristics.
The tail that wags the dog with diameter is the fixture requirements ... There is not a one size fits all that will cover all bases and make everyone happy.

One of the jurisdictions I build in does not allow PEX ... It is why I'm so painfully aware of the differences in tankless delivery that are possible with a PEX manifold system when called for.

Every plumbing situation is unique (even in tract homes with supposedly identical plumbing schemes) so the above is not surprising.
Again, the toughest thing to get correct is tankless in a retrofit/remodel, much easier to design, install, tweak in new construction, there are simply too many shoe merchants and ribbon clerks in the game, and even plumbers will not agree on much of it.
And again, it is why I do not have tankless in my own home to this day, which I built before the technology was readily available locally.
That said, the next new house, and the ones after that, that I build will more than likely be spec'd for tankless as long as it is in a jurisdiction that allows me insure that a design for that particular and unique situation can be forthcoming, and that it will satisfy me, and the customer ... anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I abhor callbacks.... Nuff said.
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"Swingman" wrote in message wrote:

Disagree... they can be, and they should be if you have the opportunity to do so.

That's not what you said ... You specifically state that about a manifold system, which I have proven in practice to not be the case with proper attention to detail.

A 1/8" diameter difference in pipe is significantly and mathematically different as far as flow and volume characteristics.
The tail that wags the dog with diameter is the fixture requirements ... There is not a one size fits all that will cover all bases and make everyone happy.

One of the jurisdictions I build in does not allow PEX ... It is why I'm so painfully aware of the differences in tankless delivery that are possible with a PEX manifold system when called for.

Every plumbing situation is unique (even in tract homes with supposedly identical plumbing schemes) so the above is not surprising.
Again, the toughest thing to get correct is tankless in a retrofit/remodel, much easier to design, install, tweak in new construction, there are simply too many shoe merchants and ribbon clerks in the game, and even plumbers will not agree on much of it.
And again, it is why I do not have tankless in my own home to this day, which I built before the technology was readily available locally.
That said, the next new house, and the ones after that, that I build will more than likely be spec'd for tankless as long as it is in a jurisdiction that allows me insure that a design for that particular and unique situation can be forthcoming, and that it will satisfy me, and the customer ... anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I abhor callbacks.... Nuff said.
===============All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some experience with one and your well thought out design. I am sure they improve them each new model and that may help some. I have noted changes from the manufacture, in my conversation with an Engineer today, to help these problems, somewhat.
Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques are involved.
--
Eric


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I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?
Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...
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"Swingman" wrote in message wrote:

I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?
Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...
==== You admit, after all the authoritative hype and issue avoidance , you have no experience using or owning a tankless unit??
Despite multitudes of complaints about the same problems from actual experienced people, you classically blame the installer. Classic salesman BS, right on cue. My guess was correct right from your first empty defense.
I don't need to return any insulting comments for that one. It speaks for itself.
Again, best of luck with your sales hype. There are some better units available coming on the market.
--
Eric







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wrote:

He installed SEVEN. NONE out of SEVEN had issues. How hard is that to grasp?
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Let's recap .... Based on your own words you have experience with one installation; an installation which you publicly admit was based on "plumbers BS" and "salesman hype", and for which you admittedly fell; an installation that subsequently doesn't work (big surprise); a faulty installation for which you have repeatedly failed to find a solution; and, despite a public litany of your own failed efforts in that regard, you have somehow deluded yourself into believing that you possess a superior knowledge of the technology, of how to make it work, and that the design, planning and/ or installation of same is somehow not at fault??
Good luck with that line of self delusional reasoning, Bubba ... you'll need all you can get.
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"Eric" reminds me of the comet that bursts into sight burning ever so brightly only to fade ever so quickly into the night time sky.
Lew
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Don't blame him for being somewhat bitter though ... Too damn many opportunist in the home building industry have been screwing folks for far too long. The trade "associations" of the big boys spend half their time polishing their image, and the other half hell bent on tarnishing it.
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"Swingman" wrote:

Basic reason distributors exist.
The manufacturers want to be legally insulated from the contractors.
I had one electrical contractor who would declare bankruptcy every 12-18 months, then reopen and repeat cycle.
Lew
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On 6/8/11 11:53 PM, Swingman wrote:

brilliant.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 6/5/2011 8:55 PM, Robatoy wrote:

I've used whole house tankless in the last few houses I built (both Rinnai and GE units). The electric units have pretty hefty electrical requirements ... whole house units often require three, sixty amp, 120v circuits per unit.
Gas units are really the only way to go in this part of the country, the venting can be costly (double walled stainless vent @ approximately $60/foot), but all-in-all everyone seems happy with the units and I've had no callbacks to date.
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On 6/5/11 9:08 PM, Swingman wrote:

The house I built in OH had a talk leased by the electric company. It was a giant tank with super efficient insulation. It would only heat at night, during off-peak hours, but we never ran out of water with that giant tank.
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-MIKE-

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"Swingman" wrote:

My guess that the installation cost difference between electric and gas will be a wash, if you do 10-12 installations.
Either one will approach $1K at the user level.
The decision will be based of what fuel is used as the primary heating/cooling source.
If it's an "all electric" installation, then you have no choice BUT off peak rates come into play.
If it's gas, then gas costs for the same amount of heat will be less than electric, but by how much is the question.
The overall cost of ownership will be strictly a function of the lifestyle of the owner.
BTW, never sold a 1P-60A c'bkr in my life.
Most likely you had 2P-60A circuits with #4AWG copper wire delivering 120/240V/1PH/60HZ power.
Lew
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It happens that Lew Hodgett formulated :

Therein lies the answer as to why Tankless is more popular in Europe. REAL 3phase is common and at 400/415 between phases the copper and breaker requirements are much less.
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A recent study around here looked into the difference between a gas- and an electric clothes dryer. Not enough difference to matter. You had to dry something like 12 loads a week to come out $100.00 ahead after a year with the gas unit. Part of the reason is that kw/hr rates are low compared to other regions, even though the rates have climbed drastically in the last 2 years.
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"Robatoy" wrote:

Not enough difference to matter. You had to dry something like 12 loads a week to come out $100.00 ahead after a year with the gas unit. -------------------------------------------- Back in the days when I was involved with such things, 12 loads of laundry was just getting started for the week.
15-20 was more like it.
Of course this was before throw away diapers.
Lew
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